USA AAA not historical?

[ETF]

Just finished a big Carrier battle my (dial up) opponent states that USA AAA is way over powered in May 42. Is he correct in his assessment? Playing with CHS
Thanks....

[wdolson]

US AA did improve dramatically during 1942.  By the Battle of the Eastern Solomons it had an effectivness that surprised everyone.  AA gunners in an Enterprise task force shot down an entire formation of Vals.

I'm not sure about AA in May though.  Many US ships refit during 1942 and get boosts to AA.  Is he asking about ship AA or land based AA?

Bill

[spence]

You ought to read "Shattered Sword" or perhaps he should. US AAA was pretty effective right from the start on the more modern ships. The initial AAA on the 4-pipers and the older CLs wasn't too good though. Replacing .50 cal with 20mm and adding the much maligned 1.1 inch (rightly so but still likely to add to the number of "bullets" in the air that Japanese aviators needed to avoid) improved all ships AAA.

The later replacement of the 1.1 inch with 40mm improved things even more and US AAA became incredibly deadly in early 1943 with the introduction of the proximity fuzed 5" shell.


If complaints are due regarding AAA it is really the IJN that is overrated. The 5"/40 and 4.7/whatever carried on Japanese ships was completely unable to render a fire control solution for anything other than level bombers. The light flak 25 mm was fed by ammo clips containing only 15 rounds which required near constant reloading and consequent interruption of fire. This led to a stopgap "solution" whereby only one gun of a dual mount actually fired at any one time so that at least a constant fire could be maintained. But the faults of the guns and directors pale beside the fact that essentially each ship in an IJN TF fended completely for itself with regards to antiair defense. Japanese CVTFs were very very spread out with the overwhelming majority of the escorts spread out in rings on picket duty around 8000 - 15000 meters away from the CV. Though technically the lower value was around the upper limit for a 25mm it was well outside the gun's effective range. This pretty much meant that a Japanese CV had only its own guns to defend itself (more than any other type ship but still easily saturated and overwhelmed by a squadron attack - the very small flak support from the plane-guard DD wasn't much help). It also had its ability to manuever but the Captain might find himself on the horns of a dilema here: manuever to avoid an attack or manuever to unmask his guns. Against a dive-bombing attack once the choice was made it was for the duration of the attack and against a multidirectional attack there were simply no good choices.

The USN by contrast held the escorts in close between 1000-2000 meters where it essentially meant that any bomber going for the carrier had to deal with flak from not only the carrier but also all the guns of the escorts that were along the vector of the attack simultaneously. That invariably led to higher losses among the attacking Japanese bombers.

One should note that the Battle of the Coral Sea gutted Zuikaku and Shokaku's air groups. Shokaku was badly damaged and was out of the fight at Midway in any case but Zuikaku's air group was so chewed up that the IJN just left her and them at home even though they were rather short of a/c and carriers for their "Decisive Battle" (the air groups of IJN CVs were part of the ship's company so basically they were institutionally unable to meld assorted remnants into a "new" complete air group. The air groups on US CVs were "attached" to the ship, not part of it, and could be and were swapped out as required for rest, rebuilding or training).

[m10bob]

As pointed out in FIRE IN THE SKY(Bergerud), even American medium AK's had more 40mm Bofors than did the Repulse or POW....

[m10bob]

Dad-In-Law Al Brew was a Coast Guard crew chief on one of the quad 40mm's on the USS Callaway during '43-45..He said the air raids were always sweated thru not by the fear of the Japanese planes, but by the friendly fire which was compounded by the advent of the proximity fuse!
Al said the entire fleet immediately suffered "steel rain" during an air raid, and incidental wounds were common.
Imagine fragile Japanese aircraft trying to get thru, with a lot of that fire directed toward you, intentionally, and then consider that Japanese planes were easily punctured, light aluminum alloy, unarmored in all but the most scarce location, and then the fact the plane was filled with explosive avgas and munitions!
A paper airplane flying over a campfire 30 feet long might be a comparison?

[ETF]

Thanks Guys!
 
Nice post Spence.......He is grumbling still but I think you historians have set him strait until the next bump in the game

[Buck Beach]

My dad was on a transport anchored in Leyte Gulf (harbor ?) when they were attacked by Japanese aircraft. He said that aircraft would come down between the ships and you could hear, from below decks, the fire from the other ships raking across the hull. As he put it "ping, ping, ping, ping"

[spence]

What's missing from this picture?





HINT: It was chosen from quite a few because it had the widest angle shot.

[Dili]

Escorts... It's interesting that in slow speed convoys Japanese even went to the AA AK ship to protect the whole convoy but that didnt enter in mind of the more conservative Elite Fleet Admirals.

[spence]

I think the plane guard DD's wake is visible somewhat behind and above Shokaku's but the TF (WitP style) had 2 CAs and 6+ DDs in it and most of them are obviously no where near Shokaku to provide any AAA support.

[DuckofTindalos]

That's because the Japs didn't do AAA support for CV's...

[spence]

But WitP/UV Japanese do it right from the start. IRL it was 1944 before they adopted the idea. There's some pictures of Zuikaku under attack at Philippine Sea with several escorts in close attendance. Just notable for the contrast with the above photo.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: ETF

Just finished a big Carrier battle my (dial up) opponent states that USA AAA is way over powered in May 42. Is he correct in his assessment? Playing with CHS
Thanks....

Nope. All AAA is greatly underpowered UNTIL the late war period - when US AAA may indeed be too powerful. This conclusion after running 266 tests.

Note, however, that very few people understand AAA. If you run in at the wrong altitude, you will get heavy losses - but you should. Note also that AAA is not the same in all mods. Only some of them have attempted to get it right. For example, AAA in stock is inconsistent - sometimes overstating max altitude, sometimes at max altitude, sometimes not giving you max altitude. RHS uses effective altitude - and I think a couple of others do that as well. Another problem is some DP guns were set to 0 altitude - and they could not work at all! But that didn't make them too effective. The real player issue is force organization: there is a LOT a player can do to run up your AA losses - and a good one will do that.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Dad-In-Law Al Brew was a Coast Guard crew chief on one of the quad 40mm's on the USS Callaway during '43-45..He said the air raids were always sweated thru not by the fear of the Japanese planes, but by the friendly fire which was compounded by the advent of the proximity fuse!
Al said the entire fleet immediately suffered "steel rain" during an air raid, and incidental wounds were common.
Imagine fragile Japanese aircraft trying to get thru, with a lot of that fire directed toward you, intentionally, and then consider that Japanese planes were easily punctured, light aluminum alloy, unarmored in all but the most scarce location, and then the fact the plane was filled with explosive avgas and munitions!
A paper airplane flying over a campfire 30 feet long might be a comparison?

Most of the damage to Honolulu on Dec 7 1941 - and a lot of other damage - was done by FRIENDLY AAA. This is pretty normal.

[wdolson]

In the "air raid" on Los Angleles in Februrary 1942 (some flak gunners got itchy trigger fingers), several people on the ground were hurt from falling shrapnel from the AA.

Bill

[Nikademus]

how many were shot down?

[ETF]

Thanks Guys.........I have copied these to him.
I love the Pic very nice indeed!