Transport Helo's, etc.

[Shawmut]

I seem to be failing in using my Helo's for equipment or troop transport in modern settings. I go through the step of placing it over a unit I want to move and then it ends up empty at the destination. I'm sure I'm missing something quite obvious.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Shawmut

I seem to be failing in using my Helo's for equipment or troop transport in modern settings. I go through the step of placing it over a unit I want to move and then it ends up empty at the destination. I'm sure I'm missing something quite obvious.

You are...[;)]

Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport. You do NOT need to have the transport helicopter unit in the same hex. Only within 200 Km of the unit to be moved. Provided enough transport capacity exists within 200 Km of the unit, it will have the helicopter icon appear in the unit panel, and the right-click menu options for the unit. Click embark, move the unit, and then right click disembark. Alternatively, you can select another unit and the first one will automatically disembark.

[Jo van der Pluym]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Shawmut

I seem to be failing in using my Helo's for equipment or troop transport in modern settings. I go through the step of placing it over a unit I want to move and then it ends up empty at the destination. I'm sure I'm missing something quite obvious.

You are...[;)]

Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport. You do
NOT need to have the transport helicopter unit in the same hex. Only within 200 Km of the unit to be moved. Provided enough transport capacity exists within 200 Km of the unit, it will have the helicopter icon appear in the unit panel, and the right-click menu options for the unit. Click embark, move the unit, and then right click disembark. Alternatively, you can select another unit and the first one will automatically disembark.

About the 200 KM limit. There are Helicopters with a greater range. Is it possible to change this limt?

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
About the 200 KM limit. There are Helicopters with a greater range. Is it possible to change this limt?

The way the code is written, the limit is not differentiated by equipment type. Therefore, to change the limit, ALL helicopters would then meet the new limit. I don't think that the limit necessarily represents the upper range limit of any particular transport helicopters, but rather an acceptable operational limit based on doctrine. Sure, some special force units in small quantities might make deeper insertions, but for general large-scale operations, I think the limit should be fairly restricted as enemy AS and AA defenses could shred a slow moving, large scale force as it lumbered across increasingly greater distances - particularly if the path was over enemy territory.

[ColinWright]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
About the 200 KM limit. There are Helicopters with a greater range. Is it possible to change this limt?

The way the code is written, the limit is not differentiated by equipment type. Therefore, to change the limit, ALL helicopters would then meet the new limit. I don't think that the limit necessarily represents the upper range limit of any particular transport helicopters, but rather an acceptable operational limit based on doctrine. Sure, some special force units in small quantities might make deeper insertions, but for general large-scale operations, I think the limit should be fairly restricted as enemy AS and AA defenses could shred a slow moving, large scale force as it lumbered across increasingly greater distances - particularly if the path was over enemy territory.

Still -- this is similar to the flaw with conventional airborne movement. The ranges can get totally unrealistic, depending on the scale, the era, and the type of equipment available.

I usually work with Ju-52's. For some scenarios, the figures can be reasonable -- either that, or it's academic, as the whole map is within Ju-52 range. On the other hand, with Jeremy's Fall Grau the scale leads to some truly awesome jumps, and for my Operation Orient I'm definitely going to need some house rules.

It shouldn't be too hard to at least make these values adjustable by event -- even if we can't have actual transport units.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Still -- this is similar to the flaw with conventional airborne movement. The ranges can get totally unrealistic, depending on the scale, the era, and the type of equipment available.

I usually work with Ju-52's. For some scenarios, the figures can be reasonable -- either that, or it's academic, as the whole map is within Ju-52 range. On the other hand, with Jeremy's Fall Grau the scale leads to some truly awesome jumps, and for my Operation Orient I'm definitely going to need some house rules.

It shouldn't be too hard to at least make these values adjustable by event -- even if we can't have actual transport units.

Actually, its different. Helicopter transfer ranges are fixed at 200km, regardless of turn interval. While we could argue about the exact figure to use, the principle is sound.

Airborne ranges, on the other hand, are based upon movement allowances, so they rise and fall with turn interval. This is obviously incorrect. The range should be independent of turn interval. They should be like the combat ranges of aircraft, instead of like the movement allowances of aircraft. I've argued elsewhere that airborne ops should be carried out like combat instead of movement, and fixing this factor would be part of that change.

Fall Grau has whole-week turns, so the drop range is equal to how far an air unit could transfer in a week. Obviously, that transfer distance would include multiple stops on the way (no plane stays in the air for a week), and is incorrect for use as a drop range.

[Shawmut]

Thanks for all the replies.  It seems I was redundent as I had missed email notices of prior help.
Yet, I still seem to be hung up on the issue "They won't board the copters.  I'll follow through and better 'parse' 11.6.
Thanks all.  I was about to scrap the whole game and go back to pre-20th Century activities.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
...(no plane stays in the air for a week)....

How about that plane that flew around the world....how long was it airborne? Seems like it was about five days or so IIRC.

[Shawmut]

OK.  For the second night in a row I'll read (and parse) 11.6.  As it is now I feel like Barnums 'sucker born every minute' and I wake up to the same reality every time I approach these damn whirly-birds.
Right now, they serve as a reality - like the American Media.  I just send them to a conflict point so they can take great pride and scoff at their own units being killed (because they hogged the useless transports). I can just hear them saying, I acted smart or else I'd be in Iraq. Cute little icons though.  (Maybe they could serve as battle tour wagons. They get there empty and the prattle of tourist has no meaning anyway. And...They're not working.)

I will keep trying to grasp this - - just to PO those who are laughing. I'm sure this has to be simpler than I'm finding it.

[Shawmut]

Oh, Yes.  As to the range?  I'm usually just trying to get a unit or a gun across a couple of hexes.  No overnight packing needed or expectations of post cards.   Maybe it's a union thing. They're required by the icon maker contract to have heloes there.  (Can you imagine the clamor if the button-down shirt was done away with.  The Garment Workers Union have been living off sewing those little buttons for over a half a century.)  Maybe the token helos are the same type of thing.

[JAMiAM]

Keep in mind that if you move the transport helos on turn n, you must wait until turn n+1 to use them to transport units.

[Erik2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

[Raindem]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

I'm not at home right now so I can't verify it, but I seem to remember that certain equipment will be be abandoned in airmobile movement. You won't really notice it unless you examine the assigned equipment after landing.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Raindem

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Please see rule 11.6 for specifics on how to use helicopter transport...

The rule talks of Airmobile-capable land units, but doesn't mention what kind of land units fall into this category.
I notice that you can load HQ units with trucks into ligh HH units so the equipment doesn't seem to be a hinder.
Regular infantry units doesn't load, apparently they must be para/glider units.

I'm not at home right now so I can't verify it, but I seem to remember that certain equipment will be be abandoned in airmobile movement. You won't really notice it unless you examine the assigned equipment after landing.

That's correct, and the program will look at the actual weight of the transportable equipment in a unit, to determine if it will get on the planes, or helos. For example, if the capacity existing is 500, a unit weighs 2000, but only 400 of it is air-transportable, the icon will enable for the unit to be airlifted and all the untransportable equipment will be stripped out and returned to on hand inventory if the unit was supplied. It can then later be absorbed into the unit by the normal replacement function each turn.

[Erik2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
.....
Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

OK, thanks (funny that there are no icons at all with the A designation)
But why isn't the regular Inf (and other similar) icons available for airmobile transport?
I think that Inf should also be able to use airtransports (from airfield to airfield), but I see this needs a bit more programming.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
.....
Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

OK, thanks (funny that there are no icons at all with the A designation)
But why isn't the regular Inf (and other similar) icons available for airmobile transport?
I think that Inf should also be able to use airtransports (from airfield to airfield), but I see this needs a bit more programming.

LoL Erik! I think you need to get your eyeglass prescription updated. Look at the column of icons from Airborne (p.41) to Glider Antitank (p.42). They all have A superscripts.

[Erik2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Erik Nygaard

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
.....
Please see the icon descriptions on pages 41 and 42. The key is on page 42. It lists which units are airmobile. Unfortunately, I see that it does neglect the A,L designations for the HQ units.

OK, thanks (funny that there are no icons at all with the A designation)
But why isn't the regular Inf (and other similar) icons available for airmobile transport?
I think that Inf should also be able to use airtransports (from airfield to airfield), but I see this needs a bit more programming.

LoL Erik! I think you need to get your eyeglass prescription updated. Look at the column of icons from Airborne (p.41) to Glider Antitank (p.42). They all have A superscripts.

Zooming in a lot helped a bit too, sorry about that

[JAMiAM]

No problem. I usually have to bring it up to 100, or 125%, in order to read it well.

[Shawmut]

[8|] The traffic back and forth on the TransHelo's has been quite helpful, though I'm still not getting the results from my own playing.
However, I feel some reprieve from the feeling of utter stupidity that I had when I find others have experienced the same frustration.  Perhaps this is a moment when a tutorial, remediail ... or set, step by step, could be helpful [&o].  I've gone to the Korean campaign and, as well, ventured into early stages of modern conflicts vetting my mistakes.
Of course, it goes without stating that the help of both Matrix and colleagues keeps me trying - very trying as I am - to work it all out.
Thanks all.