Stock FitE Karri vs Larry

[duckenf]

What is the capacity of Soviet airborne forces in FitE?  The USSR made extensive use of airborne troops and was really the first modern army to realize their potential -- although implementation was often not as perfect as they would have hoped (but then Crete and Arnhem did not go according to plan either).  There is some coverage of it here:
 
http://www.cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Sasso/SASSO.asp
 
and I was wondering (a) if it is modelled in FitE?

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: medck

What is the capacity of Soviet airborne forces in FitE?  The USSR made extensive use of airborne troops and was really the first modern army to realize their potential -- although implementation was often not as perfect as they would have hoped (but then Crete and Arnhem did not go according to plan either).  There is some coverage of it here:

http://www.cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Sasso/SASSO.asp

and I was wondering (a) if it is modelled in FitE?

Good question. As I am the German side, I have been wondering when the Red Para's will start plopping down behind my lines, creating another mess. I haven't seen this yet, maybe one of the other players has made it farther into the scenario and has seen them (although I don't think the PO knows how to properly handle airdrops). The Red capacity to airlift is limited, 0 until turn 40, and then only 500 until 1944. Then it goes up to 850 (enough to drop an air division) and 1250 in '45. Not much capacity, if I were Red I would want more. I will look into the drops they made near Vyazma at the beginning of '42 to see if I can find out what capacity they had historically at that time, and how they progressed as the war continued. I see that link you posted has some information, I will look at that too, thanks.

[Karri]

Yes, to some extenct. But as in real life also in FitE you pretty much never get to use them.

Anyways, advance in Caucasus continues and Maykop fell giving me 5 supplies and taking 5 from Soviets. That's certainly a nice addition.

Lapland is lost, I canno't defend it with the house rules being what they are. That seems to be the case of the rest of Finland as well. I think that some major map editing or redoing the house rules is in order, otherwise the finns just can't hold their own(unless Leningrad falls, the finns always seem to be taken out by 42-43). Anyways, nice moves by Larry there.
I actually thought of withdrawing from my positions there during the mud period, but got greedy and decided not to...

From Leningrad to Stalingrad it's a war of attrition. Larry is advancing a few hexes each turn, and I either settle in a new line or take those hexes back. I am short of heavy rifle squads, not by much however. I am able to rebuild the units that have suffered to full strenght in 2-4 turns. The fighting is pretty fierce, for a couple of times now I've spotted a unit that stands at 1-2 attack/defence strenght and thought that it's a battalion, only to notice that it is a regiment. No big problems though as Larry's units are just as depleted or even more so. I attacked a few stacks this turn that should have had 200-300 rifle squads in them but only had less than 100.

[LLv34_Snefens]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Not much capacity, if I were Red I would want more. I will look into the drops they made near Vyazma at the beginning of '42 to see if I can find out what capacity they had historically at that time, and how they progressed as the war continued. I see that link you posted has some information, I will look at that too, thanks.

The airborne drops at Vyazma wasn't in the form of a single large raid like in Normandy, but more like a steady transportation of troops over a month. The following is extracts from "Black Cross / Red Star, Vol. 2. Resurgance Jan-Jun 1942" by Christer Bergström:

The Soviets countered the German retreat by conducting a large-scale airborne troop landing behind the German Lines. This was initiated on January 18 and 19, when twenty-one PS-84s - license-built American DC-3s - of MAGON GVF carried out fourty-eight sorties - thirty-four of them were succesful - and dropped 642 paratroopers from the 201st Airborne Brigade of 5th Airborne Corps behind German lines in the Ugra area south of Vyazma. The operation continued for five days, and a total of 1,642 troops were landed at the cost to MAGON GVF of six PS-84s, of which three were lost in operational accidents.

[...]the parachuting was supplemented by troops of the 250th Independent Rifle Regiment who were unloaded from transport planes landing on an improvised airstrip near Plesnyovo in German-held territory.

[...]

On January 27, the Soviets renewed the airdrop operation at Vyazma. Thirty-nine PS-84s from MAGON GVF and twenty-five four-engine TB-3s were concentrated to fly General-Major Aleksey Levashov's 4th Airborne Corps behind the German lines. However, the operation, which commenced on January 27, was ill fared from the outset. The 648 paratroopers that were dropped on the first day landed moren than ten miles from the intended drop zone and became scattered over a fifteen-mile-wide area. [...] During the following days, the airborne troop landing continued in the face of repeated Luftwaffe attacks, while VVS-Western Front directed strong fighter forces to the area. These operations saw the loss of four German fighters on January 29. A total of 2,497 Soviet paratroopers were dropped by February 2.

[...] General-Major Aleksey Levashov's 4th Airborne Corps staged the third large-scale airborne operation behind the German lines at Vyazma on February 17.
[...] On one of the last transport fligths to the Vyazma area, on February 23, a TB-3 of 3 TBAP that were carrying General-Major Aleksey Levashov and the entire staff of the 4th Airborne Corps to the landing area came under attack by a Bf 110. A 20mm round hit Levashov. The pilot of the transport plane, Major Aleksandr Mosolov, made a rapid forced landing, but Levashov's life could not be saved. Next day, the airborne assault ended. By then, 7,373 soldiers had been flown into the landing area in 612 aircraft sorties, 443 of which were completed the mission succesfully.

[...] Overcoming fierce resistance, the Soviet 4th Airborne Corps managed to accomplish its task. By February 28, it's soldiers had advanced thirteen miles to the south and southeast and reached the line on which they intended to join forces with the Soviet Fiftieth Army. But under pressure of incessant Luftwaffe attacks, the Fiftieth Army failed to penetrate the German defenses and therby establish direct contact with the airborne corps. The 4th Airborne Corps had to switch to the defense, but it continued to fight in the Gernan rear area for a prolonged period.

I think the next larger drop was performed in September 1943, when about two brigades were dropped (unintentionally) on top of 19th Pz Div at Dnepr River and evaporated. After that failure Stalin apparently was discouraged from attempting further large scale landings

Snefens

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: medck
What is the capacity of Soviet airborne forces in FitE? ,,,and I was wondering (a) if it is modelled in FitE?

It does seem to be modelled and here is one of the airborne capable dudes....the 1st Omsbon or something like that. But there isn't much cause for the Soviets to try any airdrops behind enemy lines just now and he's busy defending in Byransk. There are some more airborne dudes but I have them up in Finland killing Finns just now.

[freeboy]

Karri, Taking Lenningrad is a key to keeping hte Finns, and it is a difficult job due to the fortifications and the forest, BUT if you commit early there and not in the Moscow area, or the South, Before the Reds get too strong with an almost endless resupply of troops then taking it can be done. I took almost all the reds "city factories" in my German aar, and they still are outproducing me, so now I am simply attempting to kill the most reds!
In my Red aar, I am surely getting clobbered in 41, who does not, But I am attempting a hystorical stand and fight doctrine... we will see, Whill I will hold Lenn, My oponenet also may surround it, note we massively modded the house rules and I brought in Sweeden to boot.
 
Larry,
Why defend so far south in the Far East? If u pulled North your front would shorten? just a thought. This is a great aar, keep it up guys! I will be interested in how well the sovs do in the winter...

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the situation in the southeast part of Russia:

[Karri]

Well actually Larry, I finished building the railroad to the front line there 2 turns ago. Sorry

[Karri]

Here's a recap of what has happened so far, it's a one meg animation:

[larryfulkerson]

Most of the Soviet progress has been in the far north against the Finns, but anyway, here's the minimap view of the moves from turns 54 thru 58:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's some of the Soviet losses so far:

[duckenf]

Larry, hoe viable is it to cut off all the German troops to the east of Stalingrad? Seems like it might be possible to sever their supply lines at anypoint along the Volga and everything to the east of that would be in trouble. I notice that you've added between 75-100 unites to your force pool over the past dozen turns or so.

Karri, it would be nice to see a screenshot of your inventory like Larry has been posting (and easier than a typing in a textual account).

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: medck
Larry, hoe viable is it to cut off all the German troops to the east of Stalingrad? Seems like it might be possible to sever their supply lines at anypoint along the Volga and everything to the east of that would be in trouble. I notice that you've added between 75-100 unites to your force pool over the past dozen turns or so.

I would need more units that I currently have I'm afraid. The units that I do have are somewhat busy holding back the Axis hordes.

ORIGINAL: medck
Karri, it would be nice to see a screenshot of your inventory like Larry has been posting (and easier than a typing in a textual account).

yeah, but to post such an inventory would probably be giving away valuable intell that Karri obviously wants to hold close to his chest.

[larryfulkerson]

Oh no. Germans took the controls off. Sez so right here:

[Karri]

Nah, just a bit lazy. All that copying and pasting.
Here's the losses:

[Karri]

As you can see, I am quite low on everything...apart from the airforces however, the Soviet and German strenght is pretty much equal.

[Zort]

Just for comparison I am the Axis against Karri and were are on turn 35 and here are my losses.

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: medck

What is the capacity of Soviet airborne forces in FitE? 

Also of interest was something mentioned in the Fite Introduction/Background document. That the Soviet Air Force was wiped out, creating a shortage of transports, and the initial urgent need for ground troops forced the Airborne units to fight as front line infantry.

Unrelated, I was wondering about the two original Panther detachments, Abt 51 and Abt 52. It looks like they stay in the game for the duration but it appears that historically they were dispanded shortly after Kursk. I was thinking they would draw on those V's available to other units and I should delete them from the oob after Kursk. As things are sometimes done for a purpose in the game, I also thought maybe they are intended to stay for a reason. Anybody have a clue?

[Zerberus_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Unrelated, I was wondering about the two original Panther detachments, Abt 51 and Abt 52. It looks like they stay in the game for the duration but it appears that historically they were dispanded shortly after Kursk. I was thinking they would draw on those V's available to other units and I should delete them from the oob after Kursk. As things are sometimes done for a purpose in the game, I also thought maybe they are intended to stay for a reason. Anybody have a clue?

The PzAbt (Panzerabteilung) 51 was created in Grafenwöhr on 13.01.1943. It was built from II./PzRgt 33. In January of 1944 it was changed to II./PzRgt 33 again.

PzAbt 52 was created on 15.03.1943 in WEHRKREIS XIII (sorry, don't know the correct english word for this). It was built from I./PzRgt 15. On 21th of August 1943 it was changed to I./PzRgt 15 again and attached to 11th PzDiv (as the whole PzRgt 15 already was).

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Zerberus
WEHRKREIS XIII (sorry, don't know the correct english word for this).

Military district.