Treespider's CHS- v1.04

[rtrapasso]

treespider - out of curiosity, having just finished reading the Bloody Shambles series, i notice that the range of US aircraft (aside from the Avenger's) is woefully understated in the CHS (and regular) mods.

For instance, the B-25J has (in CHS scen 158) a regular radius of 360 miles, and extended radius of 480 miles.

In the Bloody Shambles books, it is quoted as having a far greater range (around 1250 miles, although i'd have to go back and dig it out), backed up by the mission reports. In WIki, the B-25J stats are:

Combat radius: 1,350 mi (1,170 nm, 2,170 km)
Ferry range: 2,700 mi (2,300 nm, 4,300 km)

Similarly, B-24 stats and other aircraft seem way underestimated... some of the B-24s conducting missions that were almost 24 hours nonstop in the air.

Is there going to be a revision of these aircraft (and others) as well (sorry, i haven't gone back and read every post in this thread...)

[rtrapasso]

BTW - here are stats on the B-24J from Wiki (which said they were in turn from Quest for Performance):

Combat radius: 2,100 mi (1,800 nm, 3,400 km)
Ferry range: 3,700 mi (3,200 nm, 6,000 km)

The first seems accurate according to the mission reports from Bloody Shambles - the second seems weird since it is less than double the combat radius.

BTW - the stats in CHS 158 for the B-24J are:
regular combat radius 660 miles,
extended 880 miles.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

treespider - out of curiosity, having just finished reading the Bloody Shambles series, i notice that the range of US aircraft (aside from the Avenger's) is woefully understated in the CHS (and regular) mods.

For instance, the B-25J has (in CHS scen 158) a regular radius of 360 miles, and extended radius of 480 miles.

In the Bloody Shambles books, it is quoted as having a far greater range (around 1250 miles, although i'd have to go back and dig it out), backed up by the mission reports. In WIki, the B-25J stats are:

Combat radius: 1,350 mi (1,170 nm, 2,170 km)
Ferry range: 2,700 mi (2,300 nm, 4,300 km)

Similarly, B-24 stats and other aircraft seem way underestimated... some of the B-24s conducting missions that were almost 24 hours nonstop in the air.

Is there going to be a revision of these aircraft (and others) as well (sorry, i haven't gone back and read every post in this thread...)

I went through every aircraft I had in the game and converted to knots and adjusted endurance settings to the data i had available...so for instance the B-25J in this mod calculates out to:

Normal range 11 hexes, Ext Combat Range 14 hexes, Max range 45 hexes

The B-24J has a normal range of 10 hexes and an extended range of 13. howeever I added a 600 gallon auxiliary tank which will add 300 to its endurance of 851. So the in game ranges of the B-24J end up as something like 13 normal 18 extended. One "problem" with trying to recreate history is that we shouldn't give every B-24 the ability to fly 24 hour missions because not every B-24 did and if we did then the player would have every B-24 flying 24 hour extended range missions.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

BTW - here are stats on the B-24J from Wiki (which said they were in turn from Quest for Performance):

Combat radius: 2,100 mi (1,800 nm, 3,400 km)
Ferry range: 3,700 mi (3,200 nm, 6,000 km)

The first seems accurate according to the mission reports from Bloody Shambles - the second seems weird since it is less than double the combat radius.

BTW - the stats in CHS 158 for the B-24J are:
regular combat radius 660 miles,
extended 880 miles.

I used this website for the B-24J-

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/w ... nsb24.html

It assigned the B-24 J a max range of 3300 miles.

It gave its max range as 3300 which is what I used and assigned it a 600 gallon auxiliary fuel tank to achieve this range....54 hex max range in game. In the game I cut the effectiveness of the fuel tanks from stock values because of the way the code seems to work. So instead of adding 600 to endurance my ful tanks only add 300..

[rtrapasso]

They didn't talk about the B-29 much in the book, but here is also comparisons of B-29 ranges (Wiki/Quest for Performance):

Combat radius: 3,250 mi (2,820 nm, 5,230 km)
Ferry range: 5,600 mi (4,900 nm, 9,000 km)

CHS 158: 1215 reg combat radius/1620 extended


and the P-38L
CHS: 555/740

Wiki/Quest for Performance:
Range: 1,100 mi combat, 2,600 mi ferry (1,770 km / 3,640 km)

The G4M model 22 (from Wiki, they are not getting data from Quest for Performance)

Range: 4,725 km (one way) (2,935 mi) or 1,467.5 extreme radius.
G4M1 or G4M2
radius 740 reg, 1040 extended.

So the "off" factor is not as great (although not comparing quite the same data, unfortunately.)

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

treespider - out of curiosity, having just finished reading the Bloody Shambles series, i notice that the range of US aircraft (aside from the Avenger's) is woefully understated in the CHS (and regular) mods.

For instance, the B-25J has (in CHS scen 158) a regular radius of 360 miles, and extended radius of 480 miles.

In the Bloody Shambles books, it is quoted as having a far greater range (around 1250 miles, although i'd have to go back and dig it out), backed up by the mission reports. In WIki, the B-25J stats are:

Combat radius: 1,350 mi (1,170 nm, 2,170 km)
Ferry range: 2,700 mi (2,300 nm, 4,300 km)

Similarly, B-24 stats and other aircraft seem way underestimated... some of the B-24s conducting missions that were almost 24 hours nonstop in the air.

Is there going to be a revision of these aircraft (and others) as well (sorry, i haven't gone back and read every post in this thread...)

I went through every aircraft I had in the game and converted to knots and adjusted endurance settings to the data i had available...so for instance the B-25J in this mod calculates out to:

Normal range 11 hexes, Ext Combat Range 14 hexes, Max range 45 hexes

The B-24J has a normal range of 10 hexes and an extended range of 13. howeever I added a 600 gallon auxiliary tank which will add 300 to its endurance of 851. So the in game ranges of the B-24J end up as something like 13 normal 18 extended. One "problem" with trying to recreate history is that we shouldn't give every B-24 the ability to fly 24 hour missions because not every B-24 did and if we did then the player would have every B-24 flying 24 hour extended range missions.

Right - that's one reason why i was using just the latest model stats...

OK - you've pretty much answered my questions - mainly, if the combat radius of aircraft have been adjusted... i was just throwing out some examples of why they should be, but it looks like you've done an excellent job... [&o] [&o] [&o]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

They didn't talk about the B-29 much in the book, but here is also comparisons of B-29 ranges (Wiki/Quest for Performance):

Combat radius: 3,250 mi (2,820 nm, 5,230 km)
Ferry range: 5,600 mi (4,900 nm, 9,000 km)

CHS 158: 1215 reg combat radius/1620 extended


and the P-38L
CHS: 555/740

Wiki/Quest for Performance:
Range: 1,100 mi combat, 2,600 mi ferry (1,770 km / 3,640 km)

The G4M model 22 (from Wiki, they are not getting data from Quest for Performance)

Range: 4,725 km (one way) (2,935 mi) or 1,467.5 extreme radius.
G4M1 or G4M2
radius 740 reg, 1040 extended.

So the "off" factor is not as great (although not comparing quite the same data, unfortunately.)

Do you need me to go through each aircraft for you?[;)] Or do you simply want to download the mod from AB's site and take a look...

My B-29 - has a normal range of 24 and an extended of 32
P-38L - 7 & 9
G4M1&2 -15 & 20

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

They didn't talk about the B-29 much in the book, but here is also comparisons of B-29 ranges (Wiki/Quest for Performance):

Combat radius: 3,250 mi (2,820 nm, 5,230 km)
Ferry range: 5,600 mi (4,900 nm, 9,000 km)

CHS 158: 1215 reg combat radius/1620 extended


and the P-38L
CHS: 555/740

Wiki/Quest for Performance:
Range: 1,100 mi combat, 2,600 mi ferry (1,770 km / 3,640 km)

The G4M model 22 (from Wiki, they are not getting data from Quest for Performance)

Range: 4,725 km (one way) (2,935 mi) or 1,467.5 extreme radius.
G4M1 or G4M2
radius 740 reg, 1040 extended.

So the "off" factor is not as great (although not comparing quite the same data, unfortunately.)

Do you need me to go through each aircraft for you?[;)] Or do you simply want to download the mod from AB's site and take a look...

My B-29 - has a normal range of 24 and an extended of 32
P-38L - 7 & 9
G4M1&2 -15 & 20

No, sorry - i was just coming up with some stuff where i thought the numbers could be off, and was asking if there was a correction... and you answered that...

i will probably download your mod, but i don't want to get bolluxed up since i have one CHS game going... unfortunately, i doubt that it would be possible to upgrade the game in mid-stride so to speak.

However, we should defeat the Japanese soon* in our Threadwar game, and maybe we can use this in our rematch!! [8D]

*last calculated time (if it goes to 1945) at our current rate of play was in 22 years... [X(] [:'(]

[treespider]

Time is relative...

[ctangus]

I like it a lot - particularly the airfield size reduction (like you intended). A few comments/thoughts/errata:

1. There's not a single AF in the Marshalls that can be expanded to size 4. I can't say I know a lot about the geography there, but for game balance I think at least one base should be able to expand that high - maybe Kwaj. Otherwise I can see the allies easily taking the Marshalls in early '42. Also for game balance - I'd like to see at least one AF in the Kuriles with an SPS of at least 1.

2. I like having a Pete Float Fighter, but I'd also like to have the option to convert it back to a Pete Float Plane. (If a slot is available.) Or define it to upgrade to either Jakes or Alfs.

3. China's even more a complete dog's breakfast. I like it! [:)]

4. With only one "Chinese Warlord" in the static Chinese formations, you can divide the static Chinese units and make 2/3 of them mobile. Most players probably wouldn't do that, but with 3-4 "Warlord" units (like in CHS 2.x) even the divided units would be immobile.

With all that said, this looks like a great mod. Time permitting, I hope to start a game with this scenario soon.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I like it a lot - particularly the airfield size reduction (like you intended). A few comments/thoughts/errata:

1. There's not a single AF in the Marshalls that can be expanded to size 4. I can't say I know a lot about the geography there, but for game balance I think at least one base should be able to expand that high - maybe Kwaj. Otherwise I can see the allies easily taking the Marshalls in early '42. Also for game balance - I'd like to see at least one AF in the Kuriles with an SPS of at least 1.

I think I will give Kwajalein an SPS of 1. In reality the japanese could likely have supported torpedo ops for there levelbombers from this base. The Kuriles however...

2. I like having a Pete Float Fighter, but I'd also like to have the option to convert it back to a Pete Float Plane. (If a slot is available.) Or define it to upgrade to either Jakes or Alfs.

I would be willing to allow it to upgrade to the Jake.

3. China's even more a complete dog's breakfast. I like it! [:)]

Thanks.

4. With only one "Chinese Warlord" in the static Chinese formations, you can divide the static Chinese units and make 2/3 of them mobile. Most players probably wouldn't do that, but with 3-4 "Warlord" units (like in CHS 2.x) even the divided units would be immobile.

An oversite on my part I think I will opt for 2 warlords...

With all that said, this looks like a great mod. Time permitting, I hope to start a game with this scenario soon.

Thanks for the feedback and I will be sure to update the scenario with your suggestions in the next couple of days..

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: ctangus
2. I like having a Pete Float Fighter, but I'd also like to have the option to convert it back to a Pete Float Plane. (If a slot is available.) Or define it to upgrade to either Jakes or Alfs.

I would be willing to allow it to upgrade to the Jake.

Looked at the database and I think I may remove the Liz - Four Betty groups are asigned to upgrade to it and it was only a test aircraft anyway...

That would enable me to -
Put a second Pete in as a Float Fighter in the slot used for the Liz...

Then -
A. Re-assign the Pete to Float Plane status and allow Pete groups to upgrade to the Float Fighter version, and
B. Start some Pete groups as Float Fighters depending on the groups used to cover particular invasions...iirc the Kuching invasion group and some of the Philipine groups used Petes as point defense...

[Cpt Sherwood]

Since you are going to make an update, ship class 621 has torpedos with an ammo value of 36 with 8 tubes. It should have an ammo value of 2 instead, it is also wrong in CHS which is where it came from.

[Cpt Sherwood]

One thing about the reduced port and airfield sizes is that there are few islands with a combined max of 10. That means the players are will be more aware and not just pile on supplies and fuel everywhere. It will make things a bit more historic in that both tankers and AKs will have to stay unloaded at some ports waiting for either space on land or a place to unload. One more thing to slow down the pace of operations.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

Since you are going to make an update, ship class 621 has torpedos with an ammo value of 36 with 8 tubes. It should have an ammo value of 2 instead, it is also wrong in CHS which is where it came from.

Correction made....will forward to AB when the package is complete...I want to go through the CHS correction thread to see if there are any other items I need to correct...

[Mike Dixon]

According to Morison, vol 3, 'Rising Sun', the Japanese destroyers Ushio and Suzanami bombarded Midway on Dec 7th. [X(] CHS currently has one of them on ASW and the other in the KB AO replenishment TF.

Morison published his volumes just after the war, I'm not sure if they've been superceded or not.

[KDonovan]

Great mod so far, but i have a couple questions while looking over the Japanese Aircraft Database....

1) The range of the C5M Babs is 3/2, while the range of the Ki-15 Babs is 8/6. Is one of them an over sight, or was the difference b/t the Navy and Army Recon versions the range?

2) I noticed no MC-21 Sally in the Database. Was this not an historical transport, and a mistake in the stock game?

3) This is regarding the G3M and G4M1. I'm having trouble figuring out the loadouts of these planes. In stock each was listed as having a 18in Torpedo at normal range and a 2x250kg bombs at extended range. Which meant the following loadouts....
- Port Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp or 800kg Bomb
- Extended Range - 2x250kg Bombs
- Naval Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp
- Extended Range - 2x250kg Bombs
- AF/Ground Attack
- Normal/Extended Range - 2x250kg Bombs
Now below is a screenshot of the loadouts of your G4M1 compared to stock. If i had to guess i would imagine the loadouts for the following missions are as follows...
- Port Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp or 800kg Bomb
- Extended Range - 1x500lbs, 2x250lbs, and 6x60kgs bombs
- Naval Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp
- Extended Range - 1x500lbs, 2x250lbs, and 6x60kgs bombs
- AF/Ground Attack
- Normal/Extended Range - 2x500lbs, 4x250lbs, 12x60kg Bombs
But i'm not entirely sure, as its confusing seeing Bombs and Torps both listed under the maximum load screen, leaving me to believe on normal range naval attack missions the Bettys will carry Torps and Bombs in one super package. Some clarification would be appreciated. Also to go along with the screen shot...should the load outs be 500/250kgs as opposed to 500/250lbs.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

Great mod so far, but i have a couple questions while looking over the Japanese Aircraft Database....

1) The range of the C5M Babs is 3/2, while the range of the Ki-15 Babs is 8/6. Is one of them an over sight, or was the difference b/t the Navy and Army Recon versions the range?

2) I noticed no MC-21 Sally in the Database. Was this not an historical transport, and a mistake in the stock game?

3) This is regarding the G3M and G4M1. I'm having trouble figuring out the loadouts of these planes. In stock each was listed as having a 18in Torpedo at normal range and a 2x250kg bombs at extended range. Which meant the following loadouts....
- Port Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp or 800kg Bomb
- Extended Range - 2x250kg Bombs
- Naval Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp
- Extended Range - 2x250kg Bombs
- AF/Ground Attack
- Normal/Extended Range - 2x250kg Bombs
Now below is a screenshot of the loadouts of your G4M1 compared to stock. If i had to guess i would imagine the loadouts for the following missions are as follows...
- Port Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp or 800kg Bomb
- Extended Range - 1x500lbs, 2x250lbs, and 6x60kgs bombs
- Naval Attack
- Normal Range - 18in Torp
- Extended Range - 1x500lbs, 2x250lbs, and 6x60kgs bombs
- AF/Ground Attack
- Normal/Extended Range - 2x500lbs, 4x250lbs, 12x60kg Bombs
But i'm not entirely sure, as its confusing seeing Bombs and Torps both listed under the maximum load screen, leaving me to believe on normal range naval attack missions the Bettys will carry Torps and Bombs in one super package. Some clarification would be appreciated. Also to go along with the screen shot...should the load outs be 500/250kgs as opposed to 500/250lbs.

Still at the office ... I'll have to get home and check but iirc the C5M probably has droptanks...

The Scenario was based on CHS 2.08 I don't believe MC-21 is in CHS...

The G3Ms and G4M1s loadout were entered from what i found in Francillion. From what I've read in the manual and on the forum a plane will carry a load out up to its listed capacity...so if armed with a torpedo the torp will = the load cap of the A/C and the A/C will only carry the torp. If armed with bombs the plane will carry a mixture of bombs up to its load cost...

[treespider]

Home now...
 
 
C5M has listed ranges in Francillion of 630 nautical miles and 600 nautical miles....
 
Ki-15 has a listed range of 1491 miles or 1296 nautical miles...

[treespider]

In regards to the G3m and G4m load out I used figures from Bond's CaS with the assumption that the planes will load bombs and or torpedos upto their load capacity...