The Flak Gap

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

According to Westerland's study on German flak defences 1939 - 45, there was no exploitable or predicitble "flak gap"

So seeing how you cannot set minimum altitude for AA guns - how did you eliminate the "flak gap"?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

According to Westerland's study on German flak defences 1939 - 45, there was no exploitable or predicitble "flak gap"

Your copy of Westermann(sic) must be vastly different from mine. My case is based heavily on his work! [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Big B

Maybe I misread the chart - what is the minimum altitudes for Hvy AAA?

Bump

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If we just could find such a chart about Japanese AA guns...

I would think - guns are guns - it's probably quite similar

Not necessarily... The way I always understood it, the Japs didn't really produce any very good flak guns, land- or sea-based (aside from the 3.9-inch Type 98)...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Your copy of Westermann(sic) must be vastly different from mine. My case is based heavily on his work! [:D]

must be, cuz so is mine.... [:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

According to Westerland's study on German flak defences 1939 - 45, there was no exploitable or predicitble "flak gap"

So seeing how you cannot set minimum altitude for AA guns - how did you eliminate the "flak gap"?

by reducing the HAA guns that exceed 25,000 feet to 25,000 feet per my FAQ.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Defining the solution - but would depend on first defining the problem!

The problem is that for both sides (but much more for Japanese since they lack other automatic AA weapons in OOB) there exists big "FLAK Gap" in which, apparently, no weapon works!


"Nikademus" and "michaelm" tested and discovered the following:

The dead zone lies between (not surprisingly) 6K and 9K feet.

Guns with max of 26K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 28K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 30K feet have a min of 8K.
Guns with max of 34K feet have a min of 9K.


Dual Purpose (DP) Guns

Code: Select all

 Device  Name                  Ceiling
 -------------------------------------
 46      4.5in/45 QF Mk I Gun  41000
 47      5.25in/50 QF Gun      46500
 48      5in/40 Type 89 Gun    31000
 49      4.7in/45 10YT Gun     32800
 50      3.9in/65 Type 98 Gun  42650
 51      3.9in/50 Type 88 Gun  36750
 52      3in/60 Type 98 Gun    29850
 53      3in/40 Type 88 Gun    23600
 54      5in/25 Mk 10 Gun      27400
 55      5in/38 Mk 12 Gun      37200
 56      3in/50 Mk 10 Gun      29800
 57      4.7in/40 QF Gun       32000
 58      4.5in/45 QF Gun       41000
 59      4in/45 QF Mk V Gun    31000
 60      4in/45 QF Mk XVI Gun  39000
 61      4in/45 QF Mk XIX Gun  31000
 62      3.9in/45 M1931 Gun    39000
 63      3.5in/50 M1926 Gun    34800
 64      3in/50 M1922 Gun      32800
 276     105mm AA Gun          36000
 292     3in DP Gun            23600
 294     4.7in DP Gun          32000
 410     3in AA Gun            29800
 452     75mm CD Gun           29850
 453     120mm CD Gun          32000
 

Anti Aircraft (AA) Guns

Code: Select all

 Device  Name                  Ceiling
 -------------------------------------
 66      3in/20cwt AA Gun      25500
 67      88mm AA Gun           31000
 68      75mm AA Gun           25000
 69      25mm Type 96 AA Gun   18040
 70      13.2mm Type 93 AAMG   14800
 71      40mm 2pdr AA Gun      9900
 72      40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
 73      20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000
 74      1.1in Mk 1 AA Gun     19000
 75      0.5in Browning M2 MG  14500
 76      2 pdr Mk VIII AA Gun  13000
 77      .303 Vickers  MG      6200
 78      37mm M1933 AA Gun     13000
 79      13.2mm AAMG           14800
 80      12.7mm AAMG           10300
 81      7.7mm Lewis MG        6200
 272     13mm AAMG (2)         13000
 273     25mm AA Gun (3)       14000
 274     40mm AA Gun (2)       14000
 275     75mm AA Gun           30000
 278     20mm AA/AT Gun        12000
 398     .303 Bren AAMG        6200
 399     .303 Lewis AAMG       6200
 400     Maxim AAMG (4)        6200
 401     12.7mm AAMG           12400
 402     Vickers AAMG (2)      8300
 403     0.5in Browning AAMG   14500
 404     20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000
 405     37mm 61-K AA Gun      20000
 406     37mm AA Gun           10500
 407     2pdr AA Gun (2)       9900
 408     40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
 409     75mm AA Gun           28000
 411     3in/20cwt AA Gun      25500
 412     76mm AA Gun           29000
 413     80mm AA Gun           28000
 414     85mm KS-12 AA Gun     33000
 415     90mm AA Gun           33800
 416     3.7in AA Gun          32000
 

Therefore, for example let's take Japanese side, it appears that up until 9000-10000 ft (i.e. when you remove the bigger AA guns due to limit you discovered) the _ONLY_ AA weapon is "13mm AAMG"... [X(][&:][:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

According to Westerland's study on German flak defences 1939 - 45, there was no exploitable or predicitble "flak gap"

Your copy of Westermann(sic) must be vastly different from mine. My case is based heavily on his work! [:D]

Here is what confuses me - all the 13mm, 25mm, and 3"DP guns have an altitude well over 10,000 feet and under 25,000 feet(I believe Appollo or Nik said 25,000 feet and over have a hard coded minimum of over 6000). So since the 6000 foot altitude is double covered, I'm just not understanding where there is a coverage gap? Maybe I'm dense.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Defining the solution - but would depend on first defining the problem!

The problem is that for both sides (but much more for Japanese since they lack other automatic AA weapons in OOB) there exists big "FLAK Gap" in which, apparently, no weapon works!


"Nikademus" and "michaelm" tested and discovered the following:

The dead zone lies between (not surprisingly) 6K and 9K feet.

Guns with max of 26K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 28K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 30K feet have a min of 8K.
Guns with max of 34K feet have a min of 9K.


Dual Purpose (DP) Guns

Code: Select all

 Device  Name                  Ceiling
 -------------------------------------
 46      4.5in/45 QF Mk I Gun  41000
 47      5.25in/50 QF Gun      46500
 48      5in/40 Type 89 Gun    31000
 49      4.7in/45 10YT Gun     32800
 50      3.9in/65 Type 98 Gun  42650
 51      3.9in/50 Type 88 Gun  36750
 52      3in/60 Type 98 Gun    29850
 53      3in/40 Type 88 Gun    23600
 54      5in/25 Mk 10 Gun      27400
 55      5in/38 Mk 12 Gun      37200
 56      3in/50 Mk 10 Gun      29800
 57      4.7in/40 QF Gun       32000
 58      4.5in/45 QF Gun       41000
 59      4in/45 QF Mk V Gun    31000
 60      4in/45 QF Mk XVI Gun  39000
 61      4in/45 QF Mk XIX Gun  31000
 62      3.9in/45 M1931 Gun    39000
 63      3.5in/50 M1926 Gun    34800
 64      3in/50 M1922 Gun      32800
 276     105mm AA Gun          36000
 292     3in DP Gun            23600
 294     4.7in DP Gun          32000
 410     3in AA Gun            29800
 452     75mm CD Gun           29850
 453     120mm CD Gun          32000
 

Anti Aircraft (AA) Guns

Code: Select all

 Device  Name                  Ceiling
 -------------------------------------
 66      3in/20cwt AA Gun      25500
 67      88mm AA Gun           31000
 68      75mm AA Gun           25000
 69      25mm Type 96 AA Gun   18040
 70      13.2mm Type 93 AAMG   14800
 71      40mm 2pdr AA Gun      9900
 72      40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
 73      20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000
 74      1.1in Mk 1 AA Gun     19000
 75      0.5in Browning M2 MG  14500
 76      2 pdr Mk VIII AA Gun  13000
 77      .303 Vickers  MG      6200
 78      37mm M1933 AA Gun     13000
 79      13.2mm AAMG           14800
 80      12.7mm AAMG           10300
 81      7.7mm Lewis MG        6200
 272     13mm AAMG (2)         13000
 273     25mm AA Gun (3)       14000
 274     40mm AA Gun (2)       14000
 275     75mm AA Gun           30000
 278     20mm AA/AT Gun        12000
 398     .303 Bren AAMG        6200
 399     .303 Lewis AAMG       6200
 400     Maxim AAMG (4)        6200
 401     12.7mm AAMG           12400
 402     Vickers AAMG (2)      8300
 403     0.5in Browning AAMG   14500
 404     20mm Oerlikon AA Gun  10000
 405     37mm 61-K AA Gun      20000
 406     37mm AA Gun           10500
 407     2pdr AA Gun (2)       9900
 408     40mm Bofors AA Gun    22800
 409     75mm AA Gun           28000
 411     3in/20cwt AA Gun      25500
 412     76mm AA Gun           29000
 413     80mm AA Gun           28000
 414     85mm KS-12 AA Gun     33000
 415     90mm AA Gun           33800
 416     3.7in AA Gun          32000
 

Therefore, for example let's take Japanese side, it appears that up until 9000-10000 ft (i.e. when you remove the bigger AA guns due to limit you discovered) the _ONLY_ AA weapon is "13mm AAMG"... [X(][&:][:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

OMG it´s even worse than I thought! I´ve surely seen your post a couple of times earlier on but forced myself to forget about it again, because whenever I would be aware of that it would prevent me from playing the Japanese side perhaps. Now I know why in my actual game against Helpless his Hudson can bomb a base of mine at 2000 ft at long range without much trouble when only small AAMGs are shooting at them (I don´t blame him as he really varies his bombing alt all over the map and I can´t see him exploiting it).

[Nikademus]

People get confused because they keep interpreting "Flak gap" as meaning a complete gap of AA within a band of airspace. This is not what is meant. A "gap" in the coverage is created by the heavy flak guns ceasing fire (completely) at a minimum altitude leaving only light or med AA to fire in it's place.

So at 6000 feet (The game's long time sweet spot) you still experience flak, but none from any gun (HAA) that has a ceiling of 25,500 feet or higher.

The min alt requirements are as follows:

land AA with a max ceiling of between 33-36000 feet will not fire at 8000 feet or less

land AA with a max ceiling of between 29-32,000 feet will not fire between at 7000 feet or less

land AA with a max ceiling of between 25.5 - 28,000 feet will not fire at 6000 feet or less


This is not how it is done in BTR hence there is no exploitable flak gap and bombers that go in at WitP alts get slaugtered if the defences are strong enough.

[jwilkerson]

Well, I guess you're gonna make me repeat everything [:D] I put in the previous threads then eh? Ok, maybe time for a rehash of this topic. I'll start at the summary level.

The primary issue with heavy flak firing at low altitude is cycle of time between receiving data on a target (position(x,y,z) , direction, speed), computing a solution (predicted position based on current known data) transmitting this data to the firing batteries, adjusting fuze settings, and pointing the barrel at the correct spot in the sky, firing the round and allowing for the round to reach the predicted position. Depending on the sub-systems used for this process and the training of the crews, it takes a number of seconds for this cycle to happen. This "time gap" essentially accounts for the "flak gap". Light flak don't have this problem because they mostly didn't use the same types of systems.

So called "barrage fire" could be used - but was not considered to be an optimal solution by the Germans - due to the large consumption of amunition and the lack of results. Improving the means of directed fire, was the primary path chosen by the Germans during the war.

Of course the advent of the proximity fuze changed the equation during the war for a few weapons and for everyone after the war.

===

Oh and I do note your use of the words "no exploitable or "predictable" Flak Gap ... perhaps I should give more weight to the "qualifiers" eh? [:D]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

People get confused because they keep interpreting "Flak gap" as meaning a complete gap of AA within a band of airspace. This is not what is meant. A "gap" in the coverage is created by the heavy flak guns ceasing fire (completely) at a minimum altitude leaving only light or med AA to fire in it's place.

So at 6000 feet (The game's long time sweet spot) you still experience flak, but none from any gun (HAA) that has a ceiling of 25,500 feet or higher.

The min alt requirements are as follows:

land AA with a max ceiling of between 33-36000 feet will not fire at 8000 feet or less

land AA with a max ceiling of between 29-32,000 feet will not fire between at 7000 feet or less

land AA with a max ceiling of between 25.5 - 28,000 feet will not fire at 6000 feet or less


This is not how it is done in BTR hence there is no exploitable flak gap and bombers that go in at WitP alts get slaugtered if the defences are strong enough.

And, for example, what weapons land based Japanese AA units posses to engage enemy aircraft at 6000ft?

The measly "13mm AAMG"... [X(][&:][:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

People get confused because they keep interpreting "Flak gap" as meaning a complete gap of AA within a band of airspace. This is not what is meant. A "gap" in the coverage is created by the heavy flak guns ceasing fire (completely) at a minimum altitude leaving only light or med AA to fire in it's place.

So at 6000 feet (The game's long time sweet spot) you still experience flak, but none from any gun (HAA) that has a ceiling of 25,500 feet or higher.

The min alt requirements are as follows:

land AA with a max ceiling of between 33-36000 feet will not fire at 8000 feet or less

land AA with a max ceiling of between 29-32,000 feet will not fire between at 7000 feet or less

land AA with a max ceiling of between 25.5 - 28,000 feet will not fire at 6000 feet or less


This is not how it is done in BTR hence there is no exploitable flak gap and bombers that go in at WitP alts get slaugtered if the defences are strong enough.

And, for example, what weapons land based Japanese AA units posses to engage enemy aircraft at 6000ft?

The measly "13mm AAMG"... [X(][&:][:(]

If what Nik says is true, and the charts are accurate, then the 75mm AA gun (device 68 - IJ gun??? - max alt 25K is under 25.5), and the 25 mm AA gun should also cover that area.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So called "barrage fire" could be used - but was not considered to be an optimal solution by the Germans - due to the large consumption of amunition and the lack of results. Improving the means of directed fire, was the primary path chosen by the Germans during the war.

Just one sidenote - although Germans made great strides in accuracy when they stopped using "barrage FLAK fire" the Allied bombers looses droped around 4x (four times!) IIRC...

I will post the exact figure later today (I am at work now) but in book I have:

Fighting the Bombers : The Luftwaffe's Struggle Against the Allied Bomber Offensive (World War II German Debriefs)


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Big B

According to this chart, there is a clean operating altitude of 20,000 to 25,000 feet where all flak is ineffective - that would certainly explain why bombing over Europe was conducted above 20,000 feet.

The pilots of the 8AF would disagree with that statement. [;)]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

And, for example, what weapons land based Japanese AA units posses to engage enemy aircraft at 6000ft?

The measly "13mm AAMG"... [X(][&:][:(]

If what Nik says is true, and the charts are accurate, then the 75mm AA gun (device 68 - IJ gun??? - max alt 25K is under 25.5), and the 25 mm AA gun should also cover that area.

Unfortunately Japanese land units consist of:

IJA AA Regiment

Code: Select all

 ##  Device  Name             Ceiling
 ------------------------------------
 12x 276     105mm AA Gun     36000
 12x 275     75mm AA Gun      30000
 8x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000
 

IJA AA Battalion

Code: Select all

 ##  Device  Name             Ceiling
 ------------------------------------
 18x 276     105mm AA Gun     36000
 6x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000
 

IJN AA Battalion

Code: Select all

 ##  Device  Name             Ceiling
 ------------------------------------
 8x  276     105mm AA Gun     36000
 8x  275     75mm AA Gun      30000
 8x  273     25mm AA Gun (3)  14000
 24x 272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000
 

And there is just 1 (one!) "IJN AA Battalion" in OOB


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well, I guess you're gonna make me repeat everything [:D] I put in the previous threads then eh? Ok, maybe time for a rehash of this topic. I'll start at the summary level.

Not really as i think, given our past conversations, that its more a prob of syntax vs. outright disagreement. When i said there was no exploitable flak gap, i did not mean to imply by any means that HAA was effective or had the same effectiveness at all alts. I have never denied the existance of minimum (*effective*) altitudes of certain larger guns. What i meant was that in my study of Westermann's book there is no indication, in wartime or hindsight that there was a hidden "sweet spot" that the Allies could have exploited. IIRC (and i'd have to pull the book to confirm....its so choked full of data noone could ever hope to memorize it!) The British did somewhat attempt to find one but underestimated the effectiveness at low-med alt weapons and suffered heavier than predicted so the Alt kept creeping up as the war progressed.

So in my summary, i'm not saying HAA would be terribly effective at lower alts, i'm saying it would at least still be able to fire and do something and that (in the german case at least, the small/med alt weapons were better at coverage in that band of airspace than was thought. I don't seem to recall the 8AF or BC "lowering" alt as the war progressed....on the contrary....it kept going up. One can argue that the Japanese are different as everyone seems to agree/think their AA weapons sucked but there is dispute there in the sources as well.

But ultimately, my point specifically concerns HAA in WITP....they do NOT simply shut off at a certain lower alt and do nothing in RL....(Tree seems to be the only person who has grasped this point i've been trying to make!) this is not how it is modeled in BTR and it's presence in WitP contributes to the abnormally low altitude setting used by both sides throughout the game contributing to base saturation and accelerated pace.

Add to that that flak doesn't disrupt bomber aim further exaserbates things.

Oh and I do note your use of the words "no exploitable or "predictable" Flak Gap ... perhaps I should give more weight to the "qualifiers" eh? [:D]

Perhaps, but like i said, i don't believe there was such a means available during the war.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

And, for example, what weapons land based Japanese AA units posses to engage enemy aircraft at 6000ft?

The measly "13mm AAMG"... [X(][&:][:(]

If what Nik says is true, and the charts are accurate, then the 75mm AA gun (device 68 - IJ gun??? - max alt 25K is under 25.5), and the 25 mm AA gun should also cover that area.

Unfortunately Japanese land units consist of:

IJA AA Regiment

Code: Select all

 ##  Device  Name             Ceiling
 ------------------------------------
 12x 276     105mm AA Gun     36000
 12x 275     75mm AA Gun      30000
 8x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000
 

IJA AA Battalion

Code: Select all

 ##  Device  Name             Ceiling
 ------------------------------------
 18x 276     105mm AA Gun     36000
 6x  272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000
 

IJN AA Battalion

Code: Select all

 ##  Device  Name             Ceiling
 ------------------------------------
 8x  276     105mm AA Gun     36000
 8x  275     75mm AA Gun      30000
 8x  273     25mm AA Gun (3)  14000
 24x 272     13mm AAMG (2)    13000
 

And there is just 1 (one!) "IJN AA Battalion" in OOB


Leo "Apollo11"

Yes, but quite a few of the Base Forces are Naval Base forces and Naval Guard units are equipped with 25 mm twin mount guns, no?

[treespider]

Ahh the heady days of Zero v. Wildcat come to mind...

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So called "barrage fire" could be used - but was not considered to be an optimal solution by the Germans - due to the large consumption of amunition and the lack of results. Improving the means of directed fire, was the primary path chosen by the Germans during the war.

Just one sidenote - although Germans made great strides in accuracy when they stopped using "barrage FLAK fire" the Allied bombers looses droped around 4x (four times!) IIRC...

I will post the exact figure later today (I am at work now) but in book I have:

Fighting the Bombers : The Luftwaffe's Struggle Against the Allied Bomber Offensive (World War II German Debriefs)


Leo "Apollo11"

There were two cases of "institutional" use of "barrier fire" by German Hvy AA units. The first was in 1940 and was due to combination of ammunition surplus (a problem not to be repeated [:D]) and lack of director equipment. During this period shoot downs were down dramatically and "barrier fire" success even more so. So for example in Dec 1940 directed fire accounted for 22 out of 23 aircraft shot down, while barrier fire accounted for 1. The second institutional use of "barrier fire" was in flak units equipped by "foreign" equipment as these batteries were not equipped with director equipment. And the use of "barrier fire" tactics in these units remained in effect for the duration of the war.

The Germans used the strict measure of "shoot downs" as their metric for flak success. They debated whether "disrupting the aim" of the bombers was perhaps not the real goal of flak. But this less objective metric was not adopted, so the Germans continued to seek solutions which increased the shoot down rate.

[jwilkerson]

But ultimately, my point specifically concerns HAA in WITP....they do NOT simply shut off at a certain lower alt and do nothing in RL

I think we've agreed on the solutions in the past - we're just debating the "evidence" right now! [:D]