CHS American Volunteer Group (AVG)

[Fletcher]

I am playing several PBEM games (CHS 2.08, Scen 158), and I sincerely think that the AVG power is understrength over historical facts.
Some update will be taken in the next version about it ?
Thanks in advance !
Cheers from Spain.

[DuckofTindalos]

Why do you think so...?

[Dixie]

Understrength in what way?  I don't see any issues with it, although I'll admit I don't know too much about US forces.

[treespider]

I think he is trying to say they are not veritable super-men in the game...except generally in the game you won't find them fighting Nates...

[DuckofTindalos]

Yeah well, you can't judge the AVG by number of kills when that was how they earned their paychecks...

[el cid again]

There is a problem if you want the "AVG bonus" to apply to the entire group. There is just a single slot with that in hard code, and we have a technical problem with groups that are too big in air combat.

If you go the old CHS way (and still the RHS way) - and divide down to squadron level - then not all the AVG gets the benefit. If you keep it together it is too big as a group (more than 50 aircraft is not handled by the model at this time).

RHS compromises - 2/3 of the group are in the AVG slot (48 planes) - 1/3 is not.

Someday we can put them all in - as the air model will permit more than 50 planes per side and work properly.

You can assign the group high morale to start with.

[wdolson]

In CHS Ver 2.08, only the 1st sqadron of the AVG gets the bonus.  The pilot database has a lot of problems too.  All the elite pilots end up in the 1st squadron and none in the 2nd or 3rd.  So the 2nd and 3rd squadrons end up as normal P-40B squadrons with 75 morale and experience at the start.

In my tweak, I put all aircraft together in the bonus slot, then the first turn I split the group into three squadrons.  It appears that all three get the bonus, the part C squadron ran up a fairly high score in the first few months.

Bill

[Fletcher]

I really think that the best option is the Big-B Mod with Curtiss H-81-2A like AVG aircraft in the same AVG unit (AVG GROUP) with experienced pilots (more than 75 and some with more than 85). They were soldiers of fortune very well trained. They get amazing victories over the Burma and china skys from the begining of the war, and sincerely I test them with CHS and I can not see the "difference" in combat versus Nate/Oscar japanese air sqdns.
That´s is only my modest oppinion.
Thanks for replies about.

[ChezDaJez]

I really think that the best option is the Big-B Mod with Curtiss H-81-2A like AVG aircraft in the same AVG unit (AVG GROUP) with experienced pilots (more than 75 and some with more than 85). They were soldiers of fortune very well trained. They get amazing victories over the Burma and china skys from the begining of the war, and sincerely I test them with CHS and I can not see the "difference" in combat versus Nate/Oscar japanese air sqdns.
That´s is only my modest oppinion.
Thanks for replies about.

I would say that they were well financially motivated but many were not necessarily well trained (though many indeed were). Some had never even flown fighters before.

You must also remember that their claim of 296 aircraft destroyed includes aircraft destroyed on the ground and exceeds the total number of aircraft the Japanese had serving in the area. Indeed, 50% of the kills were claimed by only 10-12 pilots. So I would say that for the most part, the average AVG pilot was no better than his service cousins.

The thing with the AVG was that they would have had no where near the success they had if it hadn't been for Chennault and his innovative tactics. Still, regardless of the actual number destroyed, they were extremely effective and had a tremendous impact at a time when America needed every morale boost it could get.

Chez

[Iron Duke]

Depends what you mean by well trained or 'elite' pilots , many of them were not even trained fighter pilots when they arrived in Burma/China they were a mix of patrol , bomber , divebomber and transport pilots (a few were fighter pilots) and had to go through a training and aircraft familiarization program , if anythink the AVG is over rated in the game.

[Fletcher]

In their first combat air mission near Kunming (50 kms far away) 10 flying tigers AVG shot down 9 of 10 Mitsubishi bombers. At February 25th, 1942, nine Curtiss from AVG defend the skies of Rangoon versus the enemy air raid with 166 japanese aircrafts. 24 IJAAF aircrafts were shot down by only 3 AVG lost. The following day over the same skies 18 japanese aircraft (of 200) were shot down by 9 Curtiss with no losses.
Chennault has been recruit 112 airmen from Army Air Corps, USNavy and USMCorps. They were sent to China in summer 1941 where they receive an intensive training at Loiwing. Chennault think up offensive tactics adapted to his P-40s.
They was organized by 3 squadrons ("Angels from Hell", "Panda Bear" and "Adans & Evas"). They modified severely their aircraft to get 15 kms/h more than P-40 max. speed.
In the first 6 month of war the confirmed shot down enemy aircrafts by AVG were 299 with only 4 P-40 shot down in air combats (others lost by operational or enemy Flak). This amazing outcome was the reason of the fame at China and United States where an Walt Disney artist desing a mascot for them (a bengal tiger jumping over a V of Victory). They were dissolved at july 4th, 1942 and reorganized in a air unit of Army known as 23th Pursuit Group of Air Special Detachment at China.
Excuse me for my poor english. I am trying to support my beginning thread with this arguments.
Thanks

[Dixie]

IIRC the AVGs first combat over Kunming resulted in 4 confirmed kills and 2 probables, these bombers were unescorted.  Also, I thought that the initial AVG training was at Toungoo, an RAF base in Burma.  After the PH attack the 3rd PS was based at Rangoon, with the 1st and 2nd moved to Kunming.  The 3rd PS claimed 35 kills in just 2 Japanese raids against Rangoon.
 
Whilst the AVG were an effective force, there would have been the common overclaiming by pilots in a confusing combat situation.  In some ways their reputation and effectiveness was understandably over-hyped by the Allied media which was starved of any news of success against the Japanese.  Whilst the AVG were more effective against the Japanese fighters, most of the fighters thaey faced were initially (IIRC) Nates rather than more modern types.
 
As far as the game goes I think the AVG is fine as it is.  As Iron Duke pointed out the AVG poilots were a mix of bombers, transports etc from the air force, marines and navy, although they had been training for 5-6 months.
 
And finally ([;)]) when the AVG dissolved only Chennault, 5 pilots and some ground crew stayed on in China to join the 23rd FG.

[m10bob]

If ANYTHING to do with aviation in game is over-rated, it it the durability of Japanese aircraft.
The AVG units used "zoom and boom" tactics, refusing to dogfight as much as possible.
Success on every theatre against Japanese bombers in particular was due to the planes' inability to take ANY hits without catching fire.
For this reason, I believe the AVG's historical success rate was due more to Chennault's tactics rather than the fighter experience of the pilots, (as a whole).
The AVG profited from the General's prior experiences running and observing the CAF prior to the advent of the AVG..

[Fletcher]

Dixie thanks for reply...I´m agree but outcome in WITP CHS 2.08 in A2A is far away from historical outcomes. In several A2A in my games I lost P-40 vs Sallies unescorted without japanese lost. However I am been convinced that your arguments are solid as I know, but i am trying to argee that Big B Mod with Curtis H-81-2A modded by AVG is more accurate that P-40B without improvements.
 

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The AVG units used "zoom and boom" tactics,

It's actually "Boom and Zoom", can't Zoom till you've boomed...[;)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The AVG units used "zoom and boom" tactics,

It's actually "Boom and Zoom", can't Zoom till you've boomed...[;)]

I thought it meant "zoom in, shoot(boom), and "git".[:D]

Just like it is impossible to "lock and load",(which civilians just love to say.)
You must load the piece, before you lock the bolt..
Kinda hard to load the piece with a closed bolt, yuh know?[;)]

[DuckofTindalos]

AFAIK, it's "Boom (dive in and shoot at the baddies) and Zoom (dive away)"...

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

AFAIK, it's "Boom (dive in and shoot at the baddies) and Zoom (dive away)"...

Oh, I accept that, the problem about which comes first is my problem..[:)]