Scenario Data

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Griffitz62

I sure hate to bring this up, but...
The CW C-47 was changed in PiF 2007 sheet from 1938 to 1941.
The CW C-47 that is on WiF CS-2 2003 is still a 1938 unit.
And since you add the PiF counters to the WiF counters, why aren't you setting up the 1938 C-47 from the WiF countersheet?

Ken

Because Harry published an errata saying that the C-47 was no longer at set up, and that a random ATR was picked.
Here is it :

***********************************************************
1. Guards Banner divisions: Guards Banner (see WiF 22.4.14) divisions are the only units that may breakdown Guards Banner Armies. Guards Banner divisions breakdown a Guards Banner Army in the same manner as ordinary divisions (see WiF 22.4.1) but may only enter play by breaking down a Guards Banner Army, not by normal production (see WiF 13.6). When destroyed, they are placed back into their force pool and are available to breakdown other Guards Banner Armies in future.

2. All Commonwealth Set Ups: Where any World in Flames set-up (see WiF 24) instructs the Commonwealth to set up a C-47, they instead set up any available Commonweath ATR (chosen randomly).

3. City based volunteers: All units with the name of a city on their back are city based volunteers (see WiF 22.4.8)
***********************************************************

Also, the 2003 counters were obviously not reprinted in 2007, but I asked Harry if his will and intention was to do the same with all the C-47 (others from PiF), the ones for France & China, and he answered me yes. So I went ahead of the cardboard counters in modifying the digital ones, that do not need to be out of print to be modified.


***********************************************************
C-47 LEND LEASED ATR
In PiF, you modified the lend leased C-47 counters so that they arrive
later, the modifications are as follow :
- China ATR 1939 : C-47 (0-*-*-*-15) --> 1942 : C-47 (0-*-*-*-15)
- CW ATR 1938 : C-47 (0-*-*-*-15) --> 1941 : C-47 (0-*-*-*-15)
- France ATR 1938 : C-47 (0-*-*-*-15) --> 1941 : C-47 (0-*-*-*-15)

Now, China and the CW also have a WiF Classic lend-leased C-47 counter.
China's is from 1940, and CW's is from 1938.
My question is, is this your intention to modify those too in the future,
when you'll reprint the Classic Countersheets ?

HR> Yes

If so, is the modification simply to change the year to put it to 1941 (CW)
and 1942 (China) ?

HR> Yes.

I'm asking this, because MWiF counters can be changed easily (no need for
reprints), and if it is your design will to change all C-47 counters, this
can be done now. I think that this is strange if we only change the PiF
counters without changing the same WiF Classic counters.

(...)

SUNDERLANDS
In PiF, you modified the Sunderland counter so that it is now a No Para Air
Transport capable. The modifications are as follow :
- CW NAV 1939 : Sunderland (3-1-2-1-20) --> 1939 : Sunderland (3-2-2-1-20)
white circle no para

Now, the CW also have a WiF Classic Sunderland counter from 1939 too.
My question is, is this your intention to modify those this one in the
future, when you'll reprint the Classic Countersheets ?

HR> yes.

If so, is the modification simply to add the no para air transport
capability ? Or do you intend to make it stronger too, as you made the PiF
Sunderland stronger ?

HR> probably.
***********************************************************
This "probably" woke up a need for clarification, so I shooted back more questions :


***********************************************************
that sounds fine Patrice.

Regards
Harry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrice Forno" <froonp@gmail.com>
To: "Harry Rowland" <adg@spitfire.com.au>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: New 2007 Counters & MWiF


Hello,

Great, thanks again for the answers !!!

So,
- for the WiF Classic CW & China C-47, I'll advocate making the changes to
them.
- for the WiF Classic Anson, we'll leave it as it is now (air transport
capable).
- for the WiF Classic Sunderland, I'll advocate making the no para air
transport capability change.

About the latter, the modifications made it from a Sunderland (3-1-2-1-20)
to a Sunderland (3-2-2-1-20), thus gaining 1 in Air to Sea factors. If you
intend to make the WiF Classic Sunderland stronger, stronger where ?
Presently, it is a (3-1-1-1-20). Would you make it a (3-2-1-1-20), that is
increasing its A2S as well ?


***********************************************************

This whole story comes from the fact that a WiF FE fan criticized the presence of the CW C-47 ATR so early in the game, arguing that C-47 were no leased in masses before 41. Harry has corrected this by printing a new DC-3 counter (CS23) that has ATR but NO PARA capacity in 1939, representing what the free world could have mustered as C-47 (taken from civil companies) were concerned.

[Griffitz62]

That's some great info Patrice, thanks. I guess as far as playing with my cardboard set I will just use the counters the way they are until the WiF sheets get updated.

Ken

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Looked at the Fascist Tide down to CW, and found 2 things to correct :

// Third scenario
// ****************************************************************************
scFascistTide:
(...)
mcItaly: // Fascist Tide

'CS Duca D''Aosta'

wouldn't it rather be written : 'CS Duca D'Aosta' ?

mcCommonwealth: // Fascist Tide
begin
AddGroupCountry(['United Kingdom'], ['[United Kingdom]', 'HQ Gort',
'ME 1', 'MO 2', 'F2 2/2', 'L2 1/1', 'L3 1/4', 'N2 0/1', 'C-47 1',
'PI 5', '[Div]', 'AT 1', 'IN 1', '[Commonwealth]', 'OI 2']);

Using the 2007 counters, the C-47 are no more imposed on setups, and the CW instead picks up a random ATR. Moreover, the C-47 should not more be available at these dates.
You should correct all scenarios that have a CW C-47 at setup, to make them have a randomly picked ATR.

An easy change to make to the setup data.

However, it brings up the question of lend leasing aircraft prior to the random draw for setups. This applies especially to the later scenarios where a lot of units are available to the various major powers through lend lease. The only possibility for how to do this that occurs to me is to provide the players with a lend lease phase - perhaps that could be attached to the scrap phase, where each major power, as part of his scrap units prior to randomly drawing units, is given the opportunity to ask his allies for lend lease air units. This is an extra step during setup (yuck[:(]) but it seems necessary. Without that step, players would be denied the opportunity to draw any lend lease air units until the 1st production phase, and they wouldn´t actually see the units on the map for several turns later.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Looked at the Fascist Tide down to CW, and found 2 things to correct :

// Third scenario
// ****************************************************************************
scFascistTide:
(...)
mcItaly: // Fascist Tide

'CS Duca D''Aosta'

wouldn't it rather be written : 'CS Duca D'Aosta' ?

mcCommonwealth: // Fascist Tide
begin
AddGroupCountry(['United Kingdom'], ['[United Kingdom]', 'HQ Gort',
'ME 1', 'MO 2', 'F2 2/2', 'L2 1/1', 'L3 1/4', 'N2 0/1', 'C-47 1',
'PI 5', '[Div]', 'AT 1', 'IN 1', '[Commonwealth]', 'OI 2']);

Using the 2007 counters, the C-47 are no more imposed on setups, and the CW instead picks up a random ATR. Moreover, the C-47 should not more be available at these dates.
You should correct all scenarios that have a CW C-47 at setup, to make them have a randomly picked ATR.

The double ´ are needed to differentiate from the single ´ which is used as a delimiter.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: capitan

ORIGINAL: SJH
I am now in Switzerland

Welcome to Europe! [:)]

For me, (from Hawaii) Europe is like standing on my head. The time difference is exactly 12 hours - my body is badly confused.

[Froonp]

However, it brings up the question of lend leasing aircraft prior to the random draw for setups. This applies especially to the later scenarios where a lot of units are available to the various major powers through lend lease. The only possibility for how to do this that occurs to me is to provide the players with a lend lease phase - perhaps that could be attached to the scrap phase, where each major power, as part of his scrap units prior to randomly drawing units, is given the opportunity to ask his allies for lend lease air units. This is an extra step during setup (yuck) but it seems necessary. Without that step, players would be denied the opportunity to draw any lend lease air units until the 1st production phase, and they wouldn´t actually see the units on the map for several turns later.

I think this is necessary too.
The source country should be able to see which aircrafts he can lend and to who. And the destination country the same.
The destination country should ba able to express his will to acquire one plane. The source country should then see all possible acquiring country, and choose which one has it.

This whole step should be in one dialog, and this dialog should be able to be called just before setup, and just before producing units.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Griffitz62

That's some great info Patrice, thanks. I guess as far as playing with my cardboard set I will just use the counters the way they are until the WiF sheets get updated.

Ken

Sure, you're right.

One day Harry told me that for him Computer WiF (as it was called at that time) was the real WiF that he would have liked to create, and that the cardboard WiF we all know is what he created being constrained by space and cost considerations.

So I like to still try to have MWiF being faithfull to what the original designer wanted his game to be.

In that specific example, the MWiF game will be ahead of the paper game, not being restricted by printings. This was also the same for the Bessarabia change too.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: capitan

ORIGINAL: SJH
I am now in Switzerland

Welcome to Europe! [:)]

For me, (from Hawaii) Europe is like standing on my head. The time difference is exactly 12 hours - my body is badly confused.

It's strange to think that you're at the same time than us today. I always picture you waking up, or going to sleep, when I'm doing the reverse, and this makes me smile.

[composer99]

I'm going to be paying a visit to Europe a week Monday for two weeks. The downside is that I might miss watching and/or listening to my hockey team's Stanley Cup Final round (Go Sens!). The upside is that they're likely to be in the Stanley Cup finals for me to miss. [:D]
&nbsp;
On topic, I've noticed that the light cruisers have their "standard" WiF designation (CL) and the raiders have theirs (CX), but that all other&nbsp;SCS and carriers&nbsp;appear to have, in the scenario data at any rate, the common designation CS instead of their normal designations (CV, CVL, BB, CA). I would be interested in knowing why that is the case.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99
On topic, I've noticed that the light cruisers have their "standard" WiF designation (CL) and the raiders have theirs (CX), but that all other SCS and carriers appear to have, in the scenario data at any rate, the common designation CS instead of their normal designations (CV, CVL, BB, CA). I would be interested in knowing why that is the case.

I suppose that this is because all CS counters are mandatory in the game, and that the rest CL, CX are options.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: composer99
On topic, I've noticed that the light cruisers have their "standard" WiF designation (CL) and the raiders have theirs (CX), but that all other SCS and carriers appear to have, in the scenario data at any rate, the common designation CS instead of their normal designations (CV, CVL, BB, CA). I would be interested in knowing why that is the case.

I suppose that this is because all CS counters are mandatory in the game, and that the rest CL, CX are options.

CS (capital ship) was created by Chris when he wrote CWIF. When I added Cruisers in Flames and Convoys in Flame, I used the more specific CL and CX for the reason Patrice gave. It lets me skip over those units during setup if the corresponding optional rule is not in use. CWIF did the same with other optional units (e.g., divisional units, partisans, etc.).

I noticed that there is at least one case of a duplicate ship name, but the country of origin is different so it shouldn't be a problem: Canberra.

Internally, all the naval units are stored with the specific type (e.g., carrier, light carrier, ASW carrier, battleship, cruiser, light cruiser, auxiliary cruiser, etc.). That level of detail isn't needed during setup - if the names are unique within country.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

However, it brings up the question of lend leasing aircraft prior to the random draw for setups. This applies especially to the later scenarios where a lot of units are available to the various major powers through lend lease. The only possibility for how to do this that occurs to me is to provide the players with a lend lease phase - perhaps that could be attached to the scrap phase, where each major power, as part of his scrap units prior to randomly drawing units, is given the opportunity to ask his allies for lend lease air units. This is an extra step during setup (yuck) but it seems necessary. Without that step, players would be denied the opportunity to draw any lend lease air units until the 1st production phase, and they wouldn´t actually see the units on the map for several turns later.

I think this is necessary too.
The source country should be able to see which aircrafts he can lend and to who. And the destination country the same.
The destination country should ba able to express his will to acquire one plane. The source country should then see all possible acquiring country, and choose which one has it.

This whole step should be in one dialog, and this dialog should be able to be called just before setup, and just before producing units.

I have to think about this. I am tempted to just create a presetup phase that can be executed by all major powers simultaneously. Each major power would be able to request and/or give lend lease air units to other major powers. Of course this would be skipped in some scenarios (e.g., Barbarossa) and for some major powers (e.g., Japan).

[mlees]

I noticed that there is at least one case of a duplicate ship name, but the country of origin is different so it shouldn't be a problem: Canberra.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-u ... c/ca70.htm (USS Canberra, CA-70)

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/kent_class.htm (HMAS Canberra, Kent class) Lost off Guadalcanal, Battle of Savo Island.

Wiki quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Canberra_(1927)

American President Franklin Delano Roosevelt wished to commemorate the loss of HMAS Canberra and made a special request that an under construction American heavy cruiser be renamed as a tribute. A Baltimore class cruiser previously designated as Pittsburgh was renamed, and the USS Canberra was launched on 19 April 1943. The ship was launched by Lady Alice C. Dixon, wife of Sir Owen Dixon, Australia's ambassador to the United States. Since there was a policy not to duplicate names across the Allied fleets, this meant that none of the ships in the Australian navy could be renamed HMAS Canberra.

Do you mention the dupe name because of game engine concerns? (Like captured coloring?)

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: capitan

ORIGINAL: SJH
I am now in Switzerland

Welcome to Europe! [:)]

For me, (from Hawaii) Europe is like standing on my head. The time difference is exactly 12 hours - my body is badly confused.

I suggest a massive, Boris Yeltsin style bender; staying out till nearly dawn. That should see you right. [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[Neilster]

The double ´ are needed to differentiate from the single ´ which is used as a delimiter.

Tell me about it. I'm helping to translate a large JScript project into Java. It involves, among other things, zillions of escape sequences being inserted and zillions of single quotes being replaced by double quotes in zillions of strings that are being appended together to form HTML. [:@]

Actually, it's not so bad. There's a lot of other re-jigging going on too. It's quite interesting. Some bits are almost just a cut and paste. Others require a total re-write.

Cheers, Neilster

[Mziln]

// Fascist Tide Italian ships Alpabetical within class
&nbsp;
'CS Conte Di Cavour', 'CS Duca D''Aosta', 'CS Garibaldi',
'CS Trento', 'CS Zara', 'CS Abruzzi', 'CS Bolzano',
'CS Eugenio Di Savoia', 'CS Fiume', 'CS Gorizia', 'CS Pola',
'CS San Giorgio', 'CS Trieste', ''CL Attendolo', 'CL Bande Nere',
'CL Barbiano', 'CL Bari', CL Cadorna', 'CL Colleoni', 'CL Diaz',
'CL Guissano',&nbsp; 'CL Montecuccoli', 'CL Taranto',
&nbsp;

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

// Fascist Tide Italian ships Alpabetical within class

'CS Conte Di Cavour', 'CS Duca D''Aosta', 'CS Garibaldi',
'CS Trento', 'CS Zara', 'CS Abruzzi', 'CS Bolzano',
'CS Eugenio Di Savoia', 'CS Fiume', 'CS Gorizia', 'CS Pola',
'CS San Giorgio', 'CS Trieste', ''CL Attendolo', 'CL Bande Nere',
'CL Barbiano', 'CL Bari', CL Cadorna', 'CL Colleoni', 'CL Diaz',
'CL Guissano',  'CL Montecuccoli', 'CL Taranto',

I'll check the original when I get home. It looks like a double quote should be a single and a single is missing later.

[Froonp]

I'll check the original when I get home. It looks like a double quote should be a single and a single is missing later.

Good catch.
I was wondering since days, why Mzlin had posted this [:D].

[Mziln]

// Fascist Tide Commonwealth ships Alphabetical within class within country

Europe

'[United Kingdom]', 'CS Ark Royal', 'CS Argus', 'CS Courageous',
'CS Hermes', 'CS Furious','CS Barham', 'CS Nelson', 'CS Ramillies',
'CS Resolution', 'CS Revenge','CS Rodney', 'CS Royal Oak',
'CS Royal Sovereign', 'CS Warspite', 'CS Hood', 'CS Renown',
'CS Repulse', 'CS Belfast', 'CS Edinburgh', 'CS Effingham',
'CS Exeter', 'CS Glasgow', 'CS Hawkins', 'CS Newcastle',
'CS Norfolk', 'CS Sheffield', 'CS Southampton', 'CS York', 'CL Arethusa',
'CL Aurora', 'CL Carlisle', 'CL Cairo', 'CL Calcutta', 'CL Caledon',
'CL Calypso', 'CL Capetown', 'CL Caradoc', 'CL Cardiff', 'CL Ceres',
'CL Colombo', 'CL Curlew', 'CL Delhi', 'CL Diomede', 'CL Dragon',
'CL Dunedin', 'CL Emerald', 'CL Enterprise', 'CL Galatea', 'CL Penelope'

USA East Coast

'[United Kingdom]', 'CS Berwick', 'CS Cumberland', 'CL Ajax', 'CL Danae',
'CL Durban', 'CL Despatch', 'CL Dauntless', 'CL Neptune', 'CL Orion',
'[Australia]', 'CL Perth', '[New Zealand]', 'CL Achilles'

Construction Pool

'[United Kingdom]', 'CS Formidable', 'CS Victorious', 'CS Iron Duke',
'CS King George V', 'CS Prince of Wales', 'CS Kenya', 'CS Mauritius',
'CS Nigeria', 'CL Dido', 'CL Euryalus', 'CL Hermione', 'CL Naiad',
'CL Phoebe'

Repair Pool

'[United Kingdom]', 'CS Queen Elizabeth', 'CS London', 'CS Frobisher',
'CS Suffolk', 'CL Curacoa'

Transfer Pool

'[United Kingdom]', 'CS Glorius', 'CS Eagle', 'CS Malaya', 'CS Kent',
'CS Manchester', 'CS Birmingham', 'CS Cornwall', 'CS Devonshire',
'CS Dorsetshire', 'CS Gloucester', 'CS Liverpool', 'CS Sussex', 'CL Coventry',
'[Australia]', 'CS Australia', 'CS Canberra', 'CS Shropshire', 'CL Adelaide',
'CL Sydney', 'CL Hobart', '[New Zealand]', 'CL Leander'

[font="times new roman"] [/font]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I believe I have the best solution to handling lend lease units prior to the start of each scenario.

- Rather than create a new phase, which would have some repercussions on a lot of other code, I'll just insert a check before the first major power on each side.

- The check will search for all major powers on the side that can lend or receive lend lease air units at the start of the scenario. Each of those major powers that can receive a lend lease air units will be able to make requests for same.

- Then each major power that can lend lease air units will be given the opportunity to grant or deny the requests.

This design will cause the 'phase' to only occur at most twice per game. Sometimes it will be skipped entirely. Some examples:

- Barbarossa will skip the phase entirely.
- Guadalcanal will only invovle the CW and USA. [In fact, Japan will never see these screens at all.]
- Global War wil not have any Axis phase since the Italian lendlease units arrive after 1939. For the Allied side, only a few US air units will be available for the CW to request.
- Brute force has the major power setup sequence of: China/USSR/Italy/... So, China initiates the lend lease phase for the Allied side and Ialy does the same for the Axis side.

I have to design a form for requesting and granting/denying lend lease requests, but it should be fairly simple to do. the form will list all available lend lease units for each major power that can 'borrow' a unit, the requester checks a box requesting a unit, and the lender checks says yea or nay.