question about carrier battle - elladan keep out!

[Barb]

Do you think it is clever decision to commit Sara, Lady Lex(sys dmg 9), Fighting Lady, and Big E(sys dmg 9), into a carrier battle with expected 3 enemy carriers + chitose/chioda in january 1942?

the japs will have aproximately:
60-70 zeros + 20F1M2
60+ Vals
60+ Kates

versus:
70 F4F3 + 27 Buffalo
144 SBD Dauntless
60 TBD Devastator

Strategic situation which forced me into do something decisive:
Japs landed at Lahiana Roads 8/12/1941 with 10,000+ troops
Now they have there cca: 40 A6M2 + 20 Val + 20 kate + 50 Sally + float planes
My forces in Pearl Harbor: 30 B-17E (with no replacements) + 20 b-18 + 25 P-40E and small parts of fighter units (4xF4F3, 2x P-40C, 4xP-26). His carries visited pearl two times from the beggining of the game (so they must have SYS dmg 10-20 each).

Other thing which i must take into consideration is that i have only 25 Devastators in reserve with 1 replacement rate and Avangers will come in 6 months!
After this carrier battle, if i win or loose my carriers will be inoperable for half a year or so beacuse lack of fighters and Torpedo bombers.
Im expecting to loose 2 carriers for his 2 or maybe 3 if this battle occured.

Or i should avoid carrier battle and strike with my carriers at Lahiana Roads when his carriers are gone? I have three convoys prepared for pearl with units, planes and supplies.

Or i should fall back leaving PH with 5 BBs to the enemy will + let him to monitor my SF-Fiji routes?

What do you think about the situation? And what will you try to do?
1. Carrier battle
2. Strike at Lahiana when his carriers are far away + put in reinforcements
3. Retreat from PH
4. Do nothing and continue Fleet in Being approach?

[DuckofTindalos]

Stay away from him. He'll have the Zero bonus on his side, and your US carriers haven't had their 6/42 AAA upgrade.

[AmiralLaurent]

Attack with CV while sending reinforcement to PH. Bring all available warships with you and divide your CV TF in one TF per CV, all sailing together.

With four CV versus 3 Japanese you should win, or at least do a draw in the CV vs CV battle. Then use your warships or PH B-17E to sink the damaged enemy CV. By the way your damaged CV may reach PH while Japanese one can only go to Midway or Lahaina and will be lost.

A trade of 1 to 1 for CV in January 1942 will be a good one in Allied favor. It will weaken the IJN CV force at the point that LBA may engage it efficiently, and so Allied CV may not be used for 6 months until Avenger come without it being a problem. And any lost Allied CV will come back as an Essex in Spring 1943.
By the way if the US CV TF force is reduced to 2-3 CV the best thing to do is to unite it with the UK CV.

Even if the CV battle is a draw it will still allow you to probably win local sea superiority, bomb Lahaina AF and land supplies and reinforcements in PH.

Of course all the above only applies if you are sure that there is only 3 Japanese CV in the area.
By the way the SYS state of the Japanese KB is certainly better than what you think, at least if your opponent is not using full speed most of the times. After a month at sea at normal speed, SYS damage should be less than 10 and probably around 5.

[John 3rd]

I would go for it!  The sit back and wait crowd tries to avoid any sort of meaningful clash of CVs until the Zero bonus is gone.  I say---if yuo have an opportunity to inflict meaningful harm upon your opponents with a reasonable chance of not being wiped out DO IT!  These are Admiral Nimitz's words going into Midway--calculated risk...
 

[DuckofTindalos]

Yeah, the problem with that is that the opportunity isn't really there in 1/42...

[AdmNelson]

POints in your favor-- close to your land bases--- Japanese are a long way form home. Kb is split--Americans can survive with loss of their carriers

[niceguy2005]

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION: Where are the rest of his carriers?

Could well be a trap to draw your carriers out. He may have another carrier force just outside of detection range.

If you know where the rest of his carriers are then I would say go for it, I like your odds.

[ctangus]

Go for it! Even if you get crushed, it will at least be exciting... [:D]

Here's a few thoughts/suggestions:

1. Your main goal should be holding Pearl Harbor. If you lose it and all of Hawaii, you're going to have a long road back. Plus IRL the US would have fought for Hawaii if there was a legitimate threat.

2. I'm not sure if you can, but ideally attrit & fatigue his carrier air with your LBA for a day or two before you send your CVs in.

3. If your TBFs get decimated (they probably will) you can always swap them out with Marine F4F or SBD squadrons to keep your surviving CVs with some kind of punch.

Good luck! [:)]

[Yamato hugger]

Ive taken out 3 Jap carriers with 2 US carriers often enough in Jan 42. All that matters really is getting close enough to use your 1000 pounders (3 hexes in stock). I would suggest pulling your TBDs off the carriers and loading extra F4Fs and SBDs.

[wobbly]

I am going to add my 2 cents to this as well.
 
As others have stated - range is not your friend. Therefore:
 
Consider putting react orders to on - 6 hexes - to make sure you get as close as you can with this 1000 pounders.
 
Also, nerf the altitudes, consider 20K feet and above. This will mean your SBDs come down in sticks of 9. This can be a double edged sword sometimes as 9 bombers target a DD, but if they do target a carrier you may get 2 or more bomb strikes.
 
Good luck - post the outcomes.

[Barb]

1. The other carrier group of three other carriers has not been spotted yet, but there is Japs convoy heading to reinforce Lahiana road. Maybe the other carrier group is with them (10+ hexes away). But two weeks ago, Soryu and BB was hit each by one bomb by combined B-17, dauntless and B-18 Bolo strike near PH.
2. I cannot exchange TBD squadrons now for anything else now. Im short of F4F-3 ( 0 at pool, on each carrier 3-5 are missing and LB squadron from pearl have 4 of them, with i think Sara is equiped with Buffalos). One Squadron of SBD Dauntless is in Pearl.
3. I cannot put reliance on my LBAs - Pearl is under continnual pressure from Lahiana Roads now + aid from his carriers.
4. If I will intercept him, i must do it on the open ocean, north of Oahu. So no other planes will not intercept. (Because his LBA at Lahiana is much stronger than mine)
5. Im awaiting Hornet in two weeks, as a replacement for possible casualties.
6. My damaged ships cannot do it to Pearl for repair, because his LBA at Lahiana Roads.
7. We are playing BigB mod (for the 1000lbs). House rule that max 4 CV/CVL per hex. I have all my four carriers in four TFs at one Hex following each other.

There are many things to consider correctly. I dont think he will land in Pearl directly soon. He just captured Singapore (freeing three divs + many other units), but Philipines are still on fire.

Fleet in being with Preserve power seems like a good approach to me together with Hit and Run carier raids to Lahiana road, to destroy his LBA there(giving a chance to my LBA at pearl, increasing training of my airgroups, when his Carriers are out of range(the same what he is doing to me now at PH).

[Yamato hugger]

Well actually if you have 4 carriers there, you could move all your TBDs to 1 of them and load the SBDs and F4Fs off of it to the remaining 3 and send the TBD carrier off to the rear on ASW patrol for the time being.

Edit: I would suggest keeping it close enough behind your other carriers (ie in range) to take on any aircraft that might be returning to a sinking carrier. Just make sure its react is set to zero.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well actually if you have 4 carriers there, you could move all your TBDs to 1 of them and load the SBDs and F4Fs off of it to the remaining 3 and send the TBD carrier off to the rear on ASW patrol for the time being.

That's extremely gamey.

[bobogoboom]

Stupid newbie question but why?

Also slightly ot but has anyone ever successfuly invaded PH with historical first turn in a pbem?

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well actually if you have 4 carriers there, you could move all your TBDs to 1 of them and load the SBDs and F4Fs off of it to the remaining 3 and send the TBD carrier off to the rear on ASW patrol for the time being.

That's extremely gamey.

I wouldn't pull your TBDs off...for one thing you might be lucky enough to get in real close and actually use them, or if things go your way and you manage to badly damage the IJN, again you can move in close and use torps.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That's extremely gamey.

I wouldnt have had them on the carriers to begin with. Dont know why you would call that gamey. I pull the Vals off Jap carriers and load them with Zeros and Kates also. As lord high commander of whatever fleet I happen to be in command of, if I dont want to use a particular plane why should I be required to use it? With the PDU option I can dictate what planes are built, you saying that is gamey? If I can dictate what is built, why cant I dictate what is put on the carriers? I take higher op losses for using land based groups on carriers. Im paying the price, so why is that gamey? And I always make sure I have a land base or at the very least an extra carrier or 2 around to land a sinking carriers planes. Is that the gamey part? Why?

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well actually if you have 4 carriers there, you could move all your TBDs to 1 of them and load the SBDs and F4Fs off of it to the remaining 3 and send the TBD carrier off to the rear on ASW patrol for the time being.

Edit: I would suggest keeping it close enough behind your other carriers (ie in range) to take on any aircraft that might be returning to a sinking carrier. Just make sure its react is set to zero.

I wouldn't do that under the "the more the targets, the more confused the enemy cag is" defense. Additionally, even if your tbds only carry bombs they can at least tire out the cap a bit (or serve to increase their exp).

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Terminus

That's extremely gamey.

I wouldnt have had them on the carriers to begin with. Dont know why you would call that gamey. I pull the Vals off Jap carriers and load them with Zeros and Kates also. As lord high commander of whatever fleet I happen to be in command of, if I dont want to use a particular plane why should I be required to use it? With the PDU option I can dictate what planes are built, you saying that is gamey? If I can dictate what is built, why cant I dictate what is put on the carriers? I take higher op losses for using land based groups on carriers. Im paying the price, so why is that gamey? And I always make sure I have a land base or at the very least an extra carrier or 2 around to land a sinking carriers planes. Is that the gamey part? Why?

I'd say it was gamey only to the extent that WitP doesn't take into account tactical considerations such as strike capacity and rate of launching. 4 carriers can send out a bigger strike than 3 carriers. Even if you are theater big cheese/head honcho/oversoul the rl task force commander would rightfully question why, with a carrier battle about to occur, you ask him to put the Yorktown on asw patrol.

[niceguy2005]

I think to each his own and its up to each PBEM to work out the details of what is gamey and what is not.

Personally I like to play from the perspective that a commander would:
1 Use any weapon at his disposal until it is proven ineffective
2 Won't use carrier capable units when carrier trained units are available.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

I'd say it was gamey only to the extent that WitP doesn't take into account tactical considerations such as strike capacity and rate of launching. 4 carriers can send out a bigger strike than 3 carriers. Even if you are theater big cheese/head honcho/oversoul the rl task force commander would rightfully question why, with a carrier battle about to occur, you ask him to put the Yorktown on asw patrol.

I dont do it for a "bigger strike" I mean a carrier can only hold so many planes. I want the planes I send out to actually be able to do something. TBDs only carry torps out 2 hexes. SBDs carry 1000 pounders out 3. VERY often my carrier battles have been at 3 and 4 hex range. 4 hexes put them outside TBD range and only in 500 pounder range of the SBDs.

Now please note, I said TBDs, NOT TBFs. TBF groups are more than welcome on my carriers.

As for the Jap Vals, they dont pack enough of a punch to make the risk vs reward ratio worth carrying them. I will use Vals off carriers to attack airfields (where I dont want to risk my Kates and they are both just as effective). Its like anything else that goes on in a carrier TF. You load your ordanance based on what you going up against. If you hitting CVs and BBs you load 1000 AP bombs. If you hitting merchant ships or airfields, you load 1000 GP bombs. Likewise, I switch out my planes based on what I expect to be fighting. I see nothing wrong with that.