Help, Need some information!

[Possum]

Can anyone tell me where the following factories are located in 1941?
MAN
Damiler-Benz
FAMO (Berlin?)
Skoda ( Prauge?)
Alkett
Henschel
MIAG
MNH
Wegmann
Vomag
Krupp-Gruson
Nibelungemann?
Deutch Eisenwerke
Fiat
Factory No.183 (Soviet, Kharkov?)
Factory No.37 (Soviet, Moscow?)
Factory No.38 (Soviet, Moscow?)
Factory No.40 (Soviet, Moscow?)
Thank you.

[Preuss]

G'day Possum,

MAN was i believe in Augsburg.
Skoda in Prague was right...as you thought

The rest, I can't be sure of since memory fails me and all of my reference books are no longer with me.

and...I think you're looking for Nibelungenwerke

Best wishes,

Gary

[Preuss]

G'day again, Possum....here are some locations I found after doing some digging at www.achtungpanzer.com ....a very interesting site...if you're into panzers

MAN...in Kassel...my previous post was wrong
Deutsche-Eisenwerke....Teplitz-Schonau
Daimler-Benz AG... Berlin-Marienfelde
MNH...Hannover
Henschel....Kassel
VOMAG....Plauen
FAMO...Breslau
Nibelungenwerke...St. Valentin
MIAG....Breslau
As for Krupp-Gruson...all I've seen points to Krupp in Essen

Hope I've been helpful,

Gary

[Possum]

Thankyou!

[Rado]

Hi, Possum

Skoda („Reichswerke Hermann Goering”) was located in Pilsen. Your scenario OBWIRv4 is very good job.

Thank you!

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Possum
Can anyone tell me where the following factories are located in 1941?
MAN
Damiler-Benz
FAMO (Berlin?)
Skoda ( Prauge?)
Alkett
Henschel
MIAG
MNH
Wegmann
Vomag
Krupp-Gruson
Nibelungemann?
Deutch Eisenwerke
Fiat
Factory No.183 (Soviet, Kharkov?)
Factory No.37 (Soviet, Moscow?)
Factory No.38 (Soviet, Moscow?)
Factory No.40 (Soviet, Moscow?)

Possum
I only can give you the german factory data, but they are complete. Some of them vary from what Preuss wrote. Therefore here's the source first: Werner Oswald; Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Reichswehr, Wehrmacht und Bundeswehr; Stuttgart, 1982 (standard book in Germany about tanks and cars of german forces since 1900).

Here's the data:
MAN: Nürnberg,
Daimler-Benz: Berlin-Marienfelde,
FAMO: Breslau, Warschau,
Skoda: Pilsen, Königgrätz,
Alkett (Rheinmetall): Berlin-Spandau, Berlin-Tegel, since 1944 Berlin-Falkensee too, so probably just Berlin ,
Henschel: Kassel,
MIAG (Amme-Werk): Braunschweig,
MNH (Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsen): Hannover,
Wegmann: Kassel,
Vomag: Plauen,
Krupp (Gruson-Werk): Magdeburg,
Nibelungenwerk (until 1940 named Steyr): St. Valentin,
Deutsche Eisenwerke: Duisburg, Mühlheim/Ruhr, Teplitz-Schönau.

As you can see some manufactureres had several factories at different cities. Sorry, but the book doesn't show that more detailed.
In that book there's a complete list of ALL tank and car factories including what types of equipment was produced (listed by manufacturerers (see above)). If you want that data let me know.

Dave

[Possum]

Davewolf, Could you please cross check the following data with your book

German AFV factories - Possum v5.1

MAN ( Nurnberg, city #28)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Marder II - size 1 - arrives 22 Feb 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 24 Jan 43

Damiler Benz ( Berlin, city #24)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Marder II - size 1 - arrives 5 Apr 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 31 Jan 43

MNH ( Hannover , city #21)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Panther - size 0 - arrives 17 Jan 43
Jagdpanther - size 1 - arrives 23 Jan 44

Henschel ( Kassel, City #96)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Tiger I - size 1 - arrives 16 Aug 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 10 Jan 43

Krupp ( Madeburg, city #22)
Pz-IVe - size 10 - start

MIAG ( Breslau,city #31 - should be Braunshwig, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IIIh - size 5 - start
StuG-IIIg - size 2 - arrives 31 May 42
Jagdpanther - size 0 - arrives 30 Jan 44

Alkett ( Berlin, city#24)
Pz-IIIh - size 12 - start
StuG-IIIb - size 5 - start

Wegmann ( Berlin, city#24)
Tiger I - size 0 - arrives 13 sept 42

Demag (Stuttgart, city#6)
Panther - size 0 - arrives 16 Apr 44

Skoda ( Prague, city#27 - should be Pilsen, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
PzJg-38(t) - Size 1 - arrives 3 Aug 41

VOMAG ( Lepzig, city#25 - should be Plauen, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IVf - size 1 - arrives 4 Jan 42 (factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Jagdpanzer IV - size 1 - arrives 21 Feb 43

Deutsch eisenwerk ( Stettin, citty #23 - should be Tepliz-Schenau, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Nashorn - size 2 - arrives 21 Feb 43

FAMO ( Breslau, city#31)
Pz-IIf - size 10 - start
Marder II - size 5 - arrives 11 Jan 42

Nibelungenwerk ( Vienna, city#29 - should be St.Valentin, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IVf - size 1 - arrives 4 Jan 42 (factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Elefant - size 0 - arrives 10 Jan 43

BMM ( Prague, city#27)
Pz-38(t)e - size 10 - start

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Possum
Davewolf, Could you please cross check the following data with your book

Possum
Unfortunately in that book is no output data per factory. It only shows what types of vehicles (incl. cars and recon) were produced by which manufaturer (at all of his factories together) and that is what I can check.

So here it goes:

German AFV factories - Possum v5.1

MAN ( Nurnberg, city #28)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Marder II - size 1 - arrives 22 Feb 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 24 Jan 43

Pz.Spähwagen II Luchs (Recon) (1941-1943),
Pz. II (1935-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1943),
Panther (1942-1945).

Damiler Benz ( Berlin, city #24)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Marder II - size 1 - arrives 5 Apr 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 31 Jan 43

Pz. II (1938-1941),
Pz.Spähwagen II Luchs (Recon) (refitting 1943),
Pz. III (1936-1943),
StuG 40 (III F,G) (1942-1945),
Panther (1943-1945).

MNH ( Hannover , city #21)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Panther - size 0 - arrives 17 Jan 43
Jagdpanther - size 1 - arrives 23 Jan 44

Pz. III (1940-1945),
Panther (1943-1945),
Jagdpanther (1944-1945).

Henschel ( Kassel, City #96)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Tiger I - size 1 - arrives 16 Aug 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 10 Jan 43

Pz. II (1937-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1940!!!),
Panther (1943!),
Tiger (1942-1945).

Krupp ( Madeburg, city #22)
Pz-IVe - size 10 - start

Pz. IV (1936-1942!),
StuG 40 (III F,G) (1943!).

MIAG ( Breslau,city #31 - should be Braunshwig, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IIIh - size 5 - start
StuG-IIIg - size 2 - arrives 31 May 42
Jagdpanther - size 0 - arrives 30 Jan 44

I wouldn't choose Breslau as a substitute. Braunschweig is between Hannover and Magdeburg, a bit closer to Hannover, so that would be my choice.
Pz. III (1941-1943),
StuG 40 (III F,G) (1942-1945),
Jagdpanther (1944-1945).

Alkett ( Berlin, city#24)
Pz-IIIh - size 12 - start
StuG-IIIb - size 5 - start

Marder II (refitting 1941-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1943),
StuG III (A,B) (1940-1945),
Sturmhaubitze III (15 cm) (1942-1944),
Nashorn (Hornisse) (1943-1944),
Elefant (refitting 1943),
Sturmtiger (refitting, no date).

Wegmann ( Berlin, city#24)
Tiger I - size 0 - arrives 13 sept 42

In my book Wegmann only produced at Kassel!
Pz. II (1935-1941),
Pz. III (1939-1942).

Demag (Stuttgart, city#6)
Panther - size 0 - arrives 16 Apr 44

Here's Demag initially at Wetter (Ruhr area), since 1943 at Berlin-Falkensee too!
No battle tanks, just cars and the Bergepanther. (Panther chassis refitted in order to salvage damaged tanks. What is such a vehicle called in english?)

Skoda ( Prague, city#27 - should be Pilsen, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
PzJg-38(t) - Size 1 - arrives 3 Aug 41

Only Hetzer (1944-1945).

VOMAG ( Lepzig, city#25 - should be Plauen, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IVf - size 1 - arrives 4 Jan 42 (factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Jagdpanzer IV - size 1 - arrives 21 Feb 43

Pz. IV (1941-1944),
Jagdpanzer IV (1943-1945).

Deutsch eisenwerk ( Stettin, citty #23 - should be Tepliz-Schenau, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Nashorn - size 2 - arrives 21 Feb 43

I think Teplitz-Schönau is near to Berlin, but I'm not sure and it isn't on my german map, probably too small... There's a czech Teplitz (Teplice), but I don't think this is the one. Anyway Teplitz-Schönau is only one of three mentioned factories of the Deutsche Eisenwerke. The two other ones are at Duisburg, Mühlheim/Ruhr, so a city at the Ruhr area (Essen, Wuppertal) should be easier to find.
Sturmpanzer IV (15 cm) (1943-1944),
Nashorn (Hornisse) (1943-1944),
Hummel (15cm) (1942-1944),
Flakpanzer IV (Ostwind) (1944).

FAMO ( Breslau, city#31)
Pz-IIf - size 10 - start
Marder II - size 5 - arrives 11 Jan 42

Pz. II (1936-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1945).

Nibelungenwerk ( Vienna, city#29 - should be St.Valentin, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IVf - size 1 - arrives 4 Jan 42 (factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Elefant - size 0 - arrives 10 Jan 43

Pz. IV (1941-1945),
Elefant (chassis 1943),
Jagdtiger (1944-1945).

BMM ( Prague, city#27)
Pz-38(t)e - size 10 - start

The factory's original name was Praga.
Pz. 38 (t) (1937-1942),
Marder III (refitting 1942-1944),
Flakpanzer 38 (t) (1943-1944),
Hetzer (1943-1945),
Pz. III (1942),
Flakpanzer IV (1943-1944).


It seems thay abandoned some factories, maybe to concentrate on others, but I don't know. Also sorry that I don't have more precise dates for production. Hope it will help a bit though.
I added the flak tanks (Flakpanzer) because maybe you'll add it as a artillery factory. But this is of course up to you.
If you need the complete data for all recon cars and tanks factories let me know.

I guess this was your complete list of german factories. So I'll check till tomorrow if there are any factories in the book that aren't yet in your list.

Dave

[Possum]

Thank you Davewolf
Some more alterations to be done then.

[mogami]

Hi, anyone care to post the German factories type size and location in May 1940 for my France 1940 (West Front SSI) mod? I have nearly completed the unit placement

[davewolf]

Possum
Your factory list is complete regarding battle tanks. There were just some more anti air tank productions. Don't know if that's interesting for you.

Originally posted by Possum
Thank you Davewolf.

I have to thank you. Your campaign is great stuff!

Dave

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, anyone care to post the German factories type size and location in May 1940 for my France 1940 (West Front SSI) mod? I have nearly completed the unit placement

Mogami
Certainly do. As mentioned above all I have are locations, production type and rough prod. dates.
I took the text I posted for Possum and added the production before 1941:

MAN ( Nurnberg, city #28)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Marder II - size 1 - arrives 22 Feb 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 24 Jan 43

Pz. I (1934-1937),
Pz.Spähwagen II Luchs (Recon) (1941-1943),
Pz. II (1935-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1943),
Panther (1942-1945).

Damiler Benz ( Berlin, city #24)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Marder II - size 1 - arrives 5 Apr 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 31 Jan 43

Pz. I (1934-1938),
Pz. II (1938-1941),
Pz.Spähwagen II Luchs (Recon) (refitting 1943),
Pz. III (1936-1943),
StuG 40 (III F,G) (1942-1945),
Panther (1943-1945).

MNH ( Hannover , city #21)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Panther - size 0 - arrives 17 Jan 43
Jagdpanther - size 1 - arrives 23 Jan 44

Pz. III (1940-1945),
Panther (1943-1945),
Jagdpanther (1944-1945).

Henschel ( Kassel, City #96)
Pz-IIIj - size 1 - arrives 2 Nov 41 (Factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Tiger I - size 1 - arrives 16 Aug 42
Panther - size 0 - arrives 10 Jan 43

Pz. I (1934-1939),
Pz. II (1937-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1940!!!),
Panther (1943!),
Tiger (1942-1945).

Krupp ( Madeburg, city #22)
Pz-IVe - size 10 - start

Pz. IV (1936-1942!),
StuG 40 (III F,G) (1943!).

MIAG ( Breslau,city #31 - should be Braunshwig, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IIIh - size 5 - start
StuG-IIIg - size 2 - arrives 31 May 42
Jagdpanther - size 0 - arrives 30 Jan 44

I wouldn't choose Breslau as a substitute. Braunschweig is between Hannover and Magdeburg, a bit closer to Hannover, so that would be my choice.
Pz. II(1936-1940),
Pz. III (1941-1943),
StuG 40 (III F,G) (1942-1945),
Jagdpanther (1944-1945).

Alkett ( Berlin, city#24)
Pz-IIIh - size 12 - start
StuG-IIIb - size 5 - start

Marder II (refitting 1941-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1943),
StuG III (A,B) (1940-1945),
Sturmhaubitze III (15 cm) (1942-1944),
Nashorn (Hornisse) (1943-1944),
Elefant (refitting 1943),
Sturmtiger (refitting, no date).

Wegmann ( Berlin, city#24)
Tiger I - size 0 - arrives 13 sept 42

In my book Wegmann only produced at Kassel!
Pz. I (1936-1939),
Pz. II (1935-1941),
Pz. III (1939-1942).

Demag (Stuttgart, city#6)
Panther - size 0 - arrives 16 Apr 44

Here's Demag initially at Wetter (Ruhr area), since 1943 at Berlin-Falkensee too!
No battle tanks, just cars and the Bergepanther. (Panther chassis refitted in order to salvage damaged tanks. What is such a vehicle called in english?)

Skoda ( Prague, city#27 - should be Pilsen, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
PzJg-38(t) - Size 1 - arrives 3 Aug 41

Pz. 35 (t) (1935-1937),
Hetzer (1944-1945).

VOMAG ( Lepzig, city#25 - should be Plauen, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IVf - size 1 - arrives 4 Jan 42 (factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Jagdpanzer IV - size 1 - arrives 21 Feb 43

Pz. IV (1941-1944),
Jagdpanzer IV (1943-1945).

Deutsch eisenwerk ( Stettin, citty #23 - should be Tepliz-Schenau, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Nashorn - size 2 - arrives 21 Feb 43

I think Teplitz-Schönau is near to Berlin, but I'm not sure and it isn't on my german map, probably too small... There's a czech Teplitz (Teplice), but I don't think this is the one. Anyway Teplitz-Schönau is only one of three mentioned factories of the Deutsche Eisenwerke. The two other ones are at Duisburg, Mühlheim/Ruhr, so a city at the Ruhr area (Essen, Wuppertal) should be easier to find.
Sturmpanzer IV (15 cm) (1943-1944),
Nashorn (Hornisse) (1943-1944),
Hummel (15cm) (1942-1944),
Flakpanzer IV (Ostwind) (1944).

FAMO ( Breslau, city#31)
Pz-IIf - size 10 - start
Marder II - size 5 - arrives 11 Jan 42

Pz. II (1936-1943),
Pz. III (1939-1945).

Nibelungenwerk ( Vienna, city#29 - should be St.Valentin, but this city is not present on the WIR map)
Pz-IVf - size 1 - arrives 4 Jan 42 (factory exists 22/6/41 but output is miniscule)
Elefant - size 0 - arrives 10 Jan 43

Pz. IV (1941-1945),
Elefant (chassis 1943),
Jagdtiger (1944-1945).

BMM ( Prague, city#27)
Pz-38(t)e - size 10 - start

The factory's original name was Praga.
Pz. 38 (t) (1937-1942),
Marder III (refitting 1942-1944),
Flakpanzer 38 (t) (1943-1944),
Hetzer (1943-1945),
Pz. III (1942),
Flakpanzer IV (1943-1944).

Obviously they didn't produce very many tanks before they faced the T-34...
Hope this helps.

Dave

[mogami]

Thank you I can add cities to my map (the West Front not WiR map) production will not be as large an issue in a France 1940 scenario as in the Russian campaigns. But I want to have the 1940 production correct as I look to see if it will be possible to
A. make a new map covering the entire West front and N Africa (might have to move the eastern border to the polish border and cut out Spain.
B. Have the game start on Sept 1, 1939 to explore what the Western Allies could have done instead of the 'Phoney War'
C. I think it should be possible (depending on how large a map Ican get game to accept) to run the war up to the start of WiR
(and then I would look for an editor to transfer equpment and exp to German/Axis Allied units to use on Eastern Front.)

In all cases production will again be an issue.

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Mogami
Thank you

Mogami
Same as Possum. I have to thank you playing the new West Front scenarios when it will be done.

The posted data are almost only battle tank related as you can see. So if you need cars, armoured cars and recon cars and tanks production too let me know.

Dave

[mogami]

AFV Pz-I Pz-II Pz-III LTM 35 LTM 38 Pz-IV Bef-Pz Unit Total
Divisions
1. Panzer-Division 52 98 58 – – 40 8 247
2. Panzer-Division 45 115 58 – – 32 16 266
3. Panzer-Division 117 129 42 – – 26 27 341
4. Panzer-Division 135 105 40 – – 24 10 314
5. Panzer-Division 97 120 52 – – 30 16 314
6. Panzer-Division 60 – – 118 – 31 14 223
7. Panzer-Division 34 68 – – 91 24 8 225
8. Panzer-Division – 58 – – 116 23 15 212
9. Panzer-Division 30 54 41 – – 16 12 153
10. Panzer-Division 44 113 58 – – 32 18 265
Heerestruppen
40. Panzer-Abteilung 29 18 – – – 3 4 54

Total tanks in the field 643 880 349 118 207 281 148 2626
Total available (1.05.40) 1077 1092 381 143 238 290 244 3465

AFV Pz-I Pz-II Pz-III LTM 35 LTM 38 Pz-IV Bef-Pz Unit Total


Each Panzer Dicision is allowed 4 Subunits. Each May 1940 Div basicly had 2 Pz Rgts Should I just divide the number of tanks as so

1st Pz Div
1st PZ Rgt
Abt-I Pz-Ix52
Abt-II Pz-IIx98
2nd PZ Rgt
Abt-I Pz-IIIx58
Abt-II Pz-IVx40

This would give the correct number and type of tanks per division but not their actual organization. Or should I have extra subunits named for their division but not intergraded

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Mogami
Each Panzer Dicision is allowed 4 Subunits. Each May 1940 Div basicly had 2 Pz Rgts Should I just divide the number of tanks as so

1st Pz Div
1st PZ Rgt
Abt-I Pz-Ix52
Abt-II Pz-IIx98
2nd PZ Rgt
Abt-I Pz-IIIx58
Abt-II Pz-IVx40

This would give the correct number and type of tanks per division but not their actual organization. Or should I have extra subunits named for their division but not intergraded

Mogami
As much as I could pick out from Achtung Panzer! and Feldgrau.com your TO of two PzRgt's (each with two PzAbt's) is correct for the 1939 PzDiv. They changed the TO after the French campaign in late 1940, halving the number of PzRgt's in order to double the number of PzDiv. (More counters on the board...)
Dave

[mogami]

Yes but the problem I have is they should look more like this

1st Pz Div

1st Pz Rgt
Abt-I/ company Pz-Ix13
Abt-I/company Pz-IIx26
Abt-I/company Pz-IIIx15
Abt-I/company Pz-IVx10
Abt-II same as Abt-I

2nd Pz Rgt
same as 1st

But this requires 16 subunits and the game only allows 4. Is it more important to also have the organization correct or is just having the correct amount and type of tanks per division good enough?

I could make a Pz Division 3 units that would have to be kept in the same parent unit

1st Pz Division

unit one the Division Core containing the infantry and arty AT and AA

1st Pz Rgt as above
2nd Pz Rgt as above

There is an 8 unit limit per hex so a PZ Korps would be limited to 2 Pz Divisions plus 2 more support units.

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Mogami
Yes but the problem I have is they should look more like this

1st Pz Div

1st Pz Rgt
Abt-I/ company Pz-Ix13
Abt-I/company Pz-IIx26
Abt-I/company Pz-IIIx15
Abt-I/company Pz-IVx10
Abt-II same as Abt-I

2nd Pz Rgt
same as 1st

But this requires 16 subunits and the game only allows 4. Is it more important to also have the organization correct or is just having the correct amount and type of tanks per division good enough?

I could make a Pz Division 3 units that would have to be kept in the same parent unit

1st Pz Division

unit one the Division Core containing the infantry and arty AT and AA

1st Pz Rgt as above
2nd Pz Rgt as above

There is an 8 unit limit per hex so a PZ Korps would be limited to 2 Pz Divisions plus 2 more support units.

IMO a less puristic 2 PzAbt per PzRgt TO would be good enough for an operational-level game. What does the rest of us think?

[mogami]

Ok I just realized it would take twice as many unts as I thught. So I am just going to worry about having the correct types and numbers of tanks per division. And to make it even easier since i am not using the correct Rgt/Abt set up I will just name them by type,

1st Panzer Division
Pz-I x 52
Pz-IIx 98
Pz-IIIx 58
Pz-IVx 40

so a subunit in the division display would look like this
1st Pz Pz-I x52
etc etc

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Mogami
Ok I just realized it would take twice as many unts as I thught. So I am just going to worry about having the correct types and numbers of tanks per division. And to make it even easier since i am not using the correct Rgt/Abt set up I will just name them by type,

1st Panzer Division
Pz-I x 52
Pz-IIx 98
Pz-IIIx 58
Pz-IVx 40

so a subunit in the division display would look like this
1st Pz Pz-I x52
etc etc

What when the type will be changed?