Japanese type 96 torpedo bomber

[spence]

At 1230 (about), six additional cruiser planes appeared and soon began individual dive bombing attacks on Pope from ahead or starboard bow, each of these making two drops and then retiring. Planes were fired upon by the 3"-23 calibre gun until it failed to return to battery on about the 75th round. This occurred just prior to the first bombing attack. On each dive bombing attack, two 50 calibre machine guns and three 30 calibre machine guns fired upon planes when within range. The attacking planes approached to within 500 - 1000 feet on each drop. There were twelve dive bombing attacks in all. These were followed by four level bombing attacks by six Mitsubishi 97's which made four level bombing drops, from about 3000 feet. Evading maneuvers at maximum speed were initiated on commencement of each attack. On the third dive bombing attack, a bomb exploded close aboard, off port bow. Fragments caused minor topside damage and injured two men on gun #1. A four inch hole was torn through the rangefinder. On the eleventh drop, the bomb just missed the side of the ship abreast #4 torpedo tube and exploded under-water. The explosion put a large hole aft below the waterline, sprung the ship's plating for a considerable length and threw the port shaft seriously out of line, necessitating the stopping of the forward (port) engine because of the severe vibrations set up at once. Serious flooding began in the area of the port shaft alley, extending into the after engine room and after living compartments. Immediate steps were taken to plug the open hole and an attempt to control the rapid flooding of after compartments and after engine room by the Damage Control parties. However, water levels rose rapidly during the next ten minutes, despite all pumping and repair efforts. Flooding in the after engine room was gaining so rapidly that it appeared that all motive power would be lost in time.

Exerpt from Action Report of USS Pope (Hyperwar) - bold type by poster.

According to the Action Report the Pope was hit by B5Ns rather than B4s...the TROM of Ryujo at Combined Fleet gives credit for assisting in sinking the Pope to Ryujo...seems kind of unlikely that they would have replaced B5s with B4s for the Indian Ocean Ops.

BTW: Look ma, no torpedos[;)]

[DuckofTindalos]

Just one question... Who manufactured the Kate?

Was it Mitsubishi? No. The Nakajima company built the Kate, more correctly the Type 97-1 and -3 Carrier Attack Plane.

Here's the kicker: there was another Type 97 Carrier Attack Plane, the Type 97-2, manufactured by Mitsubishi, and designated the B5M, with the Allied codename "Mabel". As I posted above, Niehorster puts them on the Zuiho on 12/7.

[treespider]

Francillon has the following :
 
- by 1941 the B4Y "had been relegated to training duties, and it is rather doubtful that the type was ever encountered by Allied forces."
 
"...were operated aboard Japanese carriers until 1940, seeing combat action during the second Sino-Japanese War."
 
"Units Allocated - Akagi, Hosho, Kaga, Ryujo and Soryu, 13th and 15th Kokutai"
 
"Total of 205 B4Y1s were built..."

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: spence

BTW: Look ma, no torpedos[;)]

It was extended range[;)]

[spence]

According to Shattered Sword the Hosho launched one or more of its B4s to locate Hiryu on the 5th of June 42 to see if it had sunk yet (the DD which torpedoed it left before ascertaining it had gone down).
The B4 took the below picture (and others) and DD Tanikaze was dispatched from the remains of KB to sink the abandoned (not quite) Hiryu.



So Hosho at least still had them at the time of Midway.

[DuckofTindalos]

It's a distinct possibility that Hosho was too small to carry Kates. Most Japanese carrier aircraft didn't have fully folding wings.

[Nikademus]

B5N's did....but remember that whole SS flap about plane production. SS cited extremely low figures for modern Japanese carrier plane construction. Disputed in other quarters.

[DuckofTindalos]

Wasn't it only the tips of the wings that folded, like on the Val?

[Nikademus]

nope....full folding. B5N had a Loooong wingspan. The Japanese nominally did not prefer them [folding wing design] because they cost weight, but in the case of the B5N it was a necessity given the size.

[DuckofTindalos]

Hmm... Well, I never...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The reason I even considered this old biplane,(aside from its' relation to another old bipe, the Swordfish), was that it is mentioned as being the agressive component on the Ryujo during the Indian ocean forays between Madras and Calcutta, sinking approx 55 ships, whilst the "big boys" were out searching for Somerville's main surface/carrier forces.
The "Claude" was the ships' fighter element.

This is in TITANS OF THE SEAS, James and William Belote,1975...(An excellent narrative of carrier development and operations concerning WWII )

BTW, I have seen other sources which indicated the escort carriers already had Kate aircraft at this time as well, so its' a matter of who did the better research?
For these smaller and older flat-tops, with limited range, I'm gonna guess they did not have the priority for newer planes that the larger, newer ships had..

OK - I think I have mixed up the planes here. I thought you were talking about the Mitsubishi B5M1 - a competator of the Nakajima B5N1. It is in some ways a better plane (e.g. more range) but the B4N (Nakajima)'s engine was more reliable. You are instead talking about the earlier generation plane that was replaced by them both: B4Y1. RHS indeed has both types - the B5N is combined with the B5M - while the B4Y is a separate type. And the B4Y is indeed on some small carriers - albiet mostly it is a training asset - and it is also found in our strange training units (which I think should be removed but which Joe cautioned me would be unpopular - but why have some training units when we cannot have all?). Anyway - my remarks above were about B5M - and I do not disagree with remarks intended to be about B4Y - but rather affirm them.

[m10bob]

I'm thinking some Japanese bipes aboard might be nice , and upgradeable to Kates later on, at the players option..
If I were using those smaller CVL's for anti-merchant shipping as they did the Ryuju in the Indian ocean campaign, I don't think the type of plane mattered, if they produced results, and freed some Kates for the "big boys"...

[el cid again]

You can do this in RHS now. But the function of the B4Y is training (and to a lesser degree ASW - since in RHS some units get alternate loadouts - and some of these units have depth charges). I don't understand this - but Joe says he spent more time with training than anything else (while I spend none at all). Why these units matter isn't clear to me - but I was advised to leave them in the game - even though nominally we don't do training units (and have no slots for trainers).
But some Japanese training units did get pressed into actual combat - so it has that merit.