Supply Base Questions

[BK6583]

I've read and reread Mark Shot's guide and the user manual regarding this subject and may still need to read them again to comprehend it all. I've also long forgotten how to manipulate a saved game file so that I can attach it to better show the overall game situation. I'm playing the Germans in the Malta game. I managed to get the division and regimental supply bases set up and defending around 1700 of the first day (they were safe and not attacked). Around 0200 of the second day I started seeing a ton of messages that supplies were arriving. At 0500 of the second day I checked supply and saw nothing but green lines running every where. However, my two arty units, along with all of my mortars (I've been controlling them myself using Mark Shot's fire base concept - hence I guess they're "detached") are running out of arty and mortar ammo (they seem to have plenty of small arms and basics). I know it takes a while for a supply base to be fully up and running but just how long is that? I also know that these supplies are manhandled to the front - is that why my mortars and arty are still w/o their "main" ammo?

[JeF]

ORIGINAL: BK6583
I know it takes a while for a supply base to be fully up and running but just how long is that? I also know that these supplies are manhandled to the front - is that why my mortars and arty are still w/o their "main" ammo?

Yes.

Some things to take into the picture :
- bases are not operational until they are in the "deployed" state. It can take an hour or two IIRC.
- it takes time to send the supply request, load the trucks, send the trucks, unload the trucks; all these delays are modelled in the game.
- you should see the emergency supply request in the depot tab for the supply base, as well as the "emergency supply requested" and "supply on the way" messages in the message log for your arty units. Check the delays.
- manually controlled arty units expend their ammo real fast when given a "fire" order. You won't last the planned 12 hours between the standard supply. So, expend your ammo wisely that way. Arty units are on slow ROF when on On Call mode and even then, ammo won't last 12 hours if heavily used. I usually tend to leave one or two arty units "at rest". It helps with fatigue as well.

All in all, what you describe is not that surprising.

JeF.

[simovitch]

What JeF says is true; the airborne supply system was not set up to sustain a 9 day battle. If you look at the FJ regiment base, it only has about 50-60 50kg manpacks. A single order of 10 - 8cm mortar shells at 40 kg is about all a single manpack can carry.

You really have to conserve your FJ artillery support for when it's really needed.

[HansBolter]

Have you downloaded and installed the patches available for the game?

I played the hell out of that scenario before becoming a beta tester and can confirm that it suffered from a resupply bug that was extant in the initial release.

That bug was fixed in one of the two patches.

[BK6583]

I have the one from Nov 06 loaded. Supply (at least the small arms ammo and basics) seems to be working based upon everything I've read about it so far in the manuals and this forum - no red lines and no red status boxes. What I'm not getting are the "big" rounds for my mortars and arty. However, it appears I've got to be much more patient and much more stingy with their rates of fire and frequency of use - I was still playing HTTR in my mind where supply wise the arty and mortar "buckets" always filled up every 24 hours. COTA's a different supply animal that I guess I still need to adjust to.

[Helpless]

I found that the most limiting factor for the long FJ operations are low basics. When you hit the bottom units get >80% fatigued and become mostly static and useless. Could be that's the way it should be, but wouldn't it be more humanly if bases reach on basics share them with depleted units. Don't know how it was historically, but current situation is very dangerous for the surrounding fauna [:-] [:D]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

I found that the most limiting factor for the long FJ operations are low basics. When you hit the bottom units get >80% fatigued and become mostly static and useless. Could be that's the way it should be, but wouldn't it be more humanly if bases reach on basics share them with depleted units. Don't know how it was historically, but current situation is very dangerous for the surrounding fauna [:-] [:D]

Basics was one of the problems the patches addressed.

Sounds like BK6583 has the patch but may be a bit heaby handed with manually firing artillery. I almost never take fire direction control from artillery. I place them where I want them and let the AI fire them. I only override the AI in special circumstances.

[Helpless]

I found them very low even after patch.

[alaric99x]

Me too, in this scenario at least 2/3 of my units are completely out of basic supply by day 3 and, therefore, useless for any offensive actions.  

[HansBolter]

This seems really strange guys because I recall that the patch fixed the basics problem. I was pretty outspoken in reporting that problem originally and kept a close eye on the fix at the time.

I'll take a break from playtesting BFTB scenarios and try a quick replay of one of the COTA scenarios this weekend to see if this problem crops up again.

[Helpless]

Before the patch FJ were not getting supplies at all. Now they do get very very little which is available on the base.

[simovitch]

Guys, the FJ bases will never be able to provide supplies to sustain an offensive for more than 3 days. AFAIK this is entirely by design, and has to be planned for by you, the field commander. The German mountain division should take over the lion's share of the work once they arrive.

In BFTB we will be introducing 2 types of bases for the airborne divisions - airlanding (with jeeps and manpacks) and infantry (with lots of big trucks).

Note that a single 3t truck has the capacity of sixty 50kg manpacks, which is about all that an FJ Regt base has.

A German Gebirgsjager Regt base has 9 - 3t trucks, 80 - 1.5t trucks, and 300 - 50kg manpacks. That's about 50X the capacity of an FJ Regt base.

[Helpless]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Guys, the FJ bases will never be able to provide supplies to sustain an offensive for more than 3 days. AFAIK this is entirely by design, and has to be planned for by you, the field commander. The German mountain division should take over the lion's share of the work once they arrive.

In BFTB we will be introducing 2 types of bases for the airborne divisions - airlanding (with jeeps and manpacks) and infantry (with lots of big trucks).

Note that a single 3t truck has the capacity of sixty 50kg manpacks, which is about all that an FJ Regt base has.

A German Gebirgsjager Regt base has 9 - 3t trucks, 80 - 1.5t trucks, and 300 - 50kg manpacks. That's about 50X the capacity of an FJ Regt base.

This is absolutely understandable, but as I noted basic run out regardless of operation intensity. So, enemy can be almost 100% sure that FJ is >80% fatigued on late stages.

In my understanding FJ role is to secure initial advance by capturing airfields. Later when the core force is arriving they should feed these poor FJ in case they intended to be used later on. I'm not speaking about ammo, but basics for sure could be easily shared with FJ, thus preventing them to starve later.

[HansBolter]

Hey Sim,

I can see where the limitations make sense, especially when relying on airdrops for resupply, but it seems to me that the supply volume should increase considerably when an airfield has been secured and much larger volumes of supply can be airlifted in a manner that requires less time spent in rounding up the scattered drops.

I also realize now that with the paras relying on manpaks for resupply that perhaps in makes sense to attempt to keep their bases closer to the action than is necessary for regular ground troops.

[simovitch]

It's important to remember that SEP's that are supplied from the ground automatically deliver the supplies to the bases, while airdrop and airlanding supplies need to be picked up by the available transport from the base and delivered back to the base - so it is best to have these bases stay very close to the airborne/airlanding SEP throughout the scenario.

I agree that somehow supplies should be shared between services at some level (which may or may not be a realistic approach) but I don't think that's going to happen in COTA.

Besides, Göring was such a freak that he probably would rather let his FJ starve than ask the Heer for some food...[;)]

[alaric99x]

Maybe that's my problem, I've been placing bases halfway between the supply source and the drawing units.  I'll try the scenario again with bases where you say they should be.

[Helpless]

Not sure that empty base would help much ... but at least you can screw enemy's recon [:D]

I agree that somehow supplies should be shared between services at some level (which may or may not be a realistic approach) but I don't think that's going to happen in COTA.

That's quite expected for poor orphan arjunaless COTA [;)] ... still being a great game [&o]

[alaric99x]

It will be an experiment.  Right now I'm using individual companies detached from higher level formations.  The offensive consists of the gebirgsjaeger and individual companies that still have some basic supply.  Everybody else is taking a break.  If that's the way the scenario is played, I can live with that.

[BK6583]

[quote]ORIGINAL: simovitch

"Guys, the FJ bases will never be able to provide supplies to sustain an offensive for more than 3 days. AFAIK this is entirely by design, and has to be planned for by you, the field commander. The German mountain division should take over the lion's share of the work once they arrive."


I really hope this is wrong. Right now in this Maltese Cross there are two SEPs for the Germans. The supply chart indicates that SEP1 stops its supply after D2 and SEP2 picks it up from D3 and for the rest of the scenario. When SEP1 stops, does this mean that FJ are SOL supply wise? If so I agree with an earlier post that this does not seem or "feel" right.

Follow on question from a different post - what is the optimum way to employ supply bases? Have them sitting almost on top of SEPs or the opposite - as close to the combat units as can safely be allowed? Seems there's a transport price paid twice - from the SEP to the base and from the base to the combat units - is this really a six of one and half a dozen of the other type situation?

[alaric99x]

Does this mean that all the bases that congregate around SEP1 should migrate over to SEP2 after day 2?  What's the best location for bases?  I was always trying to move bases close to supported units, but this seems to be wrong, at least for airborne bases.