The Zero Bonus

[m10bob]

Ya know, the editor has a slot on unit formation screen where the experience/morale can be created for that individual unit..Since we know certain units were more efficicient than others, we might really look to replicate this factor, (like VMF 214, 211, etc, in lieu of credit for the "Thach Weave", etc??)..
I'm just thinkin' out loud here, wondering if the editor really allows such customization??

[el cid again]

Yes we can.

While we cannot change the TABLE that defines REPLACEMENT pilot quality

we CAN change the fields for any given UNIT we want to.

[el cid again]

We do have a number of options. I reluctantly conclude we should stay with the one we have now. It is the best all around compromise. The Zero bonus is confined to carrier planes - to types which see use for a considerable period - and no non-carrier planes are being rated as carrier planes. I don't like leaving out Oscar - or for that matter Nate -
but the Oscar did pick up range (both versions) on review.

[el cid again]

Researching the A5M4 Claude, I was reminded of a number of projects. First, it was a serious competator to the Ki-27 in its Ki-33 form. Second, it carried a drop tank (although we don't show that in our game). Third, the A6M2 drop tank was developed on the A5M4 before being used on the A6M. Fourth, two different sets of 20mm armament were test fitted - again probably related to attempting to understand the effects of cannon for the A6M project.

In the five strictly historical scenarios, I added a small drop tank. While the real one was 160 litres (35 gallons), we don't have such a tank - so I used a 130 litre one. This does not change the range at all - but it means it will carry no bombs to extended range (vice the 1 before). These aircraft have a range of 12 hexes (yielding 4 extended and 3 normal range).

In RHSEOS I decided the planning committee adopted this aircraft as an interim escort fighter - fitting the larger drop tank actually developed on this airframe. I also decided to fit it with the earliest domestic version of the 20mm naval aircraft cannon (in exactly the way it was done - simply replacing the MG with them and firing through the propeller hub). One JAAF chutai was already fitted with this aircraft (it has a dual designation in EOS and is considered to be the Ki-33)
and I added another - plus 3 Sentai. These aircraft have an extended range of 15 hexes (yielding 5 extended and 3 normal range). The Ki-27 has similar extended and normal ranges but lacks the punch and, early on, the zero bonus.

This is a way to simulate that some Army units had tactical advantages early in the war. And typical of RHS, it is not imposed on any who don't like it - it is reserved for the more radical scenario with many experimental concepts.

[m10bob]

Too bad there is not a permanent way (considered) to give planes a more accurate capability, than a time dependent "bonus"..

We all know the effects and capabilities of the Zeke and Oscar types were not countered by time, but rather by the deployment of better tactics and better aircraft.

Just a comment.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This does not change the range at all - but it means it will carry no bombs to extended range (vice the 1 before). These aircraft have a range of 12 hexes (yielding 4 extended and 3 normal range).

Just curious: Do Fighters or Fighter-bombers ever carry bombs at extended range? They have no extended range bomb loadout shown in the aircraft screen and I cannot remember to have seen a fighter or fighter-bomber make a bomb attack at extended range in the game.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Too bad there is not a permanent way (considered) to give planes a more accurate capability, than a time dependent "bonus"..

We all know the effects and capabilities of the Zeke and Oscar types were not countered by time, but rather by the deployment of better tactics and better aircraft.

Just a comment.

Actually, I think the timed bonus is a clever and reasonable mechanism. IF we had to build the capability into the airframe - it would NOT be "countered by the deployment of better tactics" at least - in game terms. Unpopular though it is in some circles - I believe this is mainly technical confusion of two sorts:

1) The people who don't like it don't understand the way programmers simplify reality and why this is a rather effective mechanism;

2) The people who don't like it have emotional (vice rational) views of what made things happen as they did. They want a "pure" hardware standard for fighter effectiveness ignoring the "software" of tactics, formation, etc.

This latter is a very very common phenomena among men (almost absent in women) about guns, fighter planes, and a number of other "macho" subjects. It is also tied to emotions about patriotism, etc. Good simulations should never be programmed to reflect such views - and the coders, designers and modders do well when they ignore such things.

Finally, remember how simple this program really is. It does very well for its simple structure (translate = something that could be afforded vice something perfect we would never get to see).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This does not change the range at all - but it means it will carry no bombs to extended range (vice the 1 before). These aircraft have a range of 12 hexes (yielding 4 extended and 3 normal range).

Just curious: Do Fighters or Fighter-bombers ever carry bombs at extended range? They have no extended range bomb loadout shown in the aircraft screen and I cannot remember to have seen a fighter or fighter-bomber make a bomb attack at extended range in the game.

Well - in the aircraft data screens bombers do show a reduced load - and fighters do not. That is hard code in the display routine itself. It does not answer the question difinitively - but it implies the answer is no. Nor would that surprise me. Further - in almost every case - that is right. Fighters cannot carry bombs to extended range - that is how they extend their range - fly "clean." External bomb loads dramatically reduce the range of the fighter - more than our algorithm says it does. But in RHS - where bombers get an extra 9% range - things are close to the right - by rules of thumb. In a very few cases, a plane can carry drop tanks and bombs - and I fill in the data so that load weight defines that - if code ever gets around to checking such things. In other words, if it does not now work, it can be made to work some day. My unpaid "job" is "get the data right" and I am told that if the code isn't right - it can follow later. In more than a few cases this has happened already - so I continue to enter data with a view to the possibility it might be used for capabilities - even if it is not yet doing so.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This does not change the range at all - but it means it will carry no bombs to extended range (vice the 1 before). These aircraft have a range of 12 hexes (yielding 4 extended and 3 normal range).

Just curious: Do Fighters or Fighter-bombers ever carry bombs at extended range? They have no extended range bomb loadout shown in the aircraft screen and I cannot remember to have seen a fighter or fighter-bomber make a bomb attack at extended range in the game.

Well - in the aircraft data screens bombers do show a reduced load - and fighters do not. That is hard code in the display routine itself. It does not answer the question difinitively - but it implies the answer is no. Nor would that surprise me. Further - in almost every case - that is right. Fighters cannot carry bombs to extended range - that is how they extend their range - fly "clean." External bomb loads dramatically reduce the range of the fighter - more than our algorithm says it does. But in RHS - where bombers get an extra 9% range - things are close to the right - by rules of thumb. In a very few cases, a plane can carry drop tanks and bombs - and I fill in the data so that load weight defines that - if code ever gets around to checking such things. In other words, if it does not now work, it can be made to work some day. My unpaid "job" is "get the data right" and I am told that if the code isn't right - it can follow later. In more than a few cases this has happened already - so I continue to enter data with a view to the possibility it might be used for capabilities - even if it is not yet doing so.

If the assumption that fighters and fighter-bombers never carry bombs at extended range is correct (and I think it is), which purpose have drop-tanks in the game? Wouldn't it be easier to simply add the corresponding (corresponding to the endurance given by the drop-tanks) endurance to fighters and fighter-bombers. Wouldn't change anything regarding plane ranges. Would save slots in the naval weapon slot range (for ship radar, Soviet naval guns, German torpedoes, whatever). [Btw., did you test if drop-tanks "work" if put in the higher numbered device database slots?).

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen




Just curious: Do Fighters or Fighter-bombers ever carry bombs at extended range? They have no extended range bomb loadout shown in the aircraft screen and I cannot remember to have seen a fighter or fighter-bomber make a bomb attack at extended range in the game.

Well - in the aircraft data screens bombers do show a reduced load - and fighters do not. That is hard code in the display routine itself. It does not answer the question difinitively - but it implies the answer is no. Nor would that surprise me. Further - in almost every case - that is right. Fighters cannot carry bombs to extended range - that is how they extend their range - fly "clean." External bomb loads dramatically reduce the range of the fighter - more than our algorithm says it does. But in RHS - where bombers get an extra 9% range - things are close to the right - by rules of thumb. In a very few cases, a plane can carry drop tanks and bombs - and I fill in the data so that load weight defines that - if code ever gets around to checking such things. In other words, if it does not now work, it can be made to work some day. My unpaid "job" is "get the data right" and I am told that if the code isn't right - it can follow later. In more than a few cases this has happened already - so I continue to enter data with a view to the possibility it might be used for capabilities - even if it is not yet doing so.

If the assumption that fighters and fighter-bombers never carry bombs at extended range is correct (and I think it is), which purpose have drop-tanks in the game? Wouldn't it be easier to simply add the corresponding (corresponding to the endurance given by the drop-tanks) endurance to fighters and fighter-bombers. Wouldn't change anything regarding plane ranges. Would save slots in the naval weapon slot range (for ship radar, Soviet naval guns, German torpedoes, whatever). [Btw., did you test if drop-tanks "work" if put in the higher numbered device database slots?).

I added them to my level bombers as Bomb Bay tanks...just read an interesting account in Fortress Against the Sun describing the B-17 missions in the battle of Midway and the use of Bomb bay tanks ....

[el cid again]

I do that as well - calling them "internal" vice external - in the case of recon bombers. But it appears they do not work at this time. Tests pretty clearly show that drop tanks (vice guns or bombs) are calculated from the plane database - not the air unit database (where I put the special recon bombers). If you do this with the basic plane data it works fine.

What drop tanks do - and this is right in RHS terms - is increase the logistic cost (in supply points) to fly to extended range (you must expend those tanks). [RHS considers logistics a first priority matter] What they might do - or may do some day - is prevent you from having bombs at extended range - IF you get them at extended range now. Stock has the devices - but does not use them. Tests indicate only a very few slots work as drop tanks - hard code again I presume. Look at RHS and you will see every last one of them.