Artifical Intelligence for World in Flames

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
- CW and USSR only request lend lease air units when those units are better than the average in their force pools and they have the BPs to build them.

The "are better than" has to be defined.
For example, while the CW LL P-40E is worse in A2A factors than most of that year's FTR2s (they have 5-7 A2A factors), it has the advantage of being one of the first allied FTR2 able to reach the Sea Box Section 3 (Range 7) with a decent A2A strength which is IMO VERY important for the CW who in this period (1941) is either trying to get the upper hand in the Med, or defending Gibraltar. So in this case, whateve its A2A strength, it is his range that makes the P-40E a must have for the CW in 1941.

- France only asks for lend lease air units after it has gone On the Offensive (strategic plan #4 - described in next post), and it has the BPs to build them.

I disagree.
Lend leased A-20 & A-22 are must have for the French in 1939. They are equal to or better than what the French have, and can be obtained in setup.

- USA always lend leases air units, in priority order, to: China, USSR, CW, France.

I disagree, in regards of what I wrote previsouly about the P-40E, who is the first decent FTR2 to be able to reach section 3 in a sea box. This is a must have for the CW. It is also good for China, but it is nearly too good for China, in regards of how much good it is for the CW. This is not the same for the P-40F of next year, because by then the CW will have had other FTRs to take superiority in the sea areas.

The value of an air unit is specific to a major power and is the highest of the various air missions for the air unit (tactical, strategic, naval air, ATR). Range is more important for naval air missions than for tactical (the importance of range for strategic air missions depends on the circumstances).

I believe I will change from average/mean value to median value. That is, whether there are more or fewer air units in the force pool that are betterthan the lend lease air unit. When there are more, then the chances of randomly drawing an air unit that is better than the lend lease air unit is over 50%.

Do you have suggestions/recommendations for other conditions/rules on when lend lease should be asked for and/or granted?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

In going over all the posts on strategic plans for the 8 major powers, I have found a common element that I think will be very helpful to me in compartmentalizing the rules for the AIO: Plan of Conquest.

I have several of these partially completed already, and I will post them once I get home and have the opportunity to type them in. For example, Plan of Conquest for: Denmark, Netherlands, Bulgaria, Persia, Yugoslavia, Phillipines. But even for these I would like to make them more complete. Here is the preliminary structure I have for storing "Plan of Conquest" data:

- land units needed
- air units needed
- naval units neeeded
- positioning for units
- 1st impulse objective hexes
- ground strikes
- invasions
- paradrops
- ground support
- objective hexes for complete conquest

Perhaps I could add oil needs, though that seems excessive. If the major power can't afford the oil, then why is it looking to conquer another country?

I originally thought to apply this design for minor countries, but a more elaborate variation might work for tackling major powers too (e.g., Opeation SeaLion). And then I figured it would be a real good idea for conquering smaller areas, especially single hexes (e.g., Gibraltar, Singapore, Truk, Honolulu, Malta, etc.). In fact, I am thinking that a standard 'package' for invading single hexes should be defined, where the package changes depending on the terrain, weather, and defenders.

This came out of my work on DOW by each major power. I saw that besides the political situation warranting the DOW, the JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) also had to have the military prowess and the requisite positioning prior to the DOW. So, in advance of deciding to DOW, the CIC (Commander in Chief) has to forewarn the JCS that a DOW will occur within the next 2 impulses. Then the JCS has to assemble and position the forces. The CIC only declares war when the JCS gives the ok. For instance, the DOW might be delayed due to weather.

If this works out the way I expect it too, the strategic plans will include these operational/tactical details and can be accessed by the various DMs (e.g., Admiralty, Air Marshal, Field Marshals) without haveing to develop them each time from first principles.

Comments?

[Froonp]

Germany has several of each of these air units (I believe), and would only lose 1 of each if Italy lend leases it. Germany can also demand it back at any time, and certainly would get it back if Italy were conquered.

Do you believe there should be more conditions checked before Germany lend leases one or more of these units? If so, what shuold they be?

I believe that your initial thought about this Ger / It LL was good. Generaly, Germany can live without this couple of planes that it lends to Italy. The Stuka and Ju88 are must have particulary. The Me109 is not that good compared to what the Italians have specially in range.

[christo]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: christo

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
For the AIO, I think only a few lend lease rules are needed.

- Italy only requests lend lease air units, when those units are better than the average units in its force pool it has the BPs to build them.
- Germany always grants Italy's requests.

Will this mean that the:
-bf 109
-fw 190 D
-Ju 88 a1
-Ju 87 D
will never be available to the german player as the stats for these planes are definately better than average for the italian planes and therefore the Italian AI will automatically request them from a compliant german AI ?

Christo

Germany has several of each of these air units (I believe), and would only lose 1 of each if Italy lend leases it. Germany can also demand it back at any time, and certainly would get it back if Italy were conquered.

Do you believe there should be more conditions checked before Germany lend leases one or more of these units? If so, what shuold they be?

It is probably a moot point anyway as Italy will be as able to utilise any of the planes for the same purpose as germany, be that supporting the invasion of the ussr or defending western europe.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In going over all the posts on strategic plans for the 8 major powers, I have found a common element that I think will be very helpful to me in compartmentalizing the rules for the AIO: Plan of Conquest.

I have several of these partially completed already, and I will post them once I get home and have the opportunity to type them in. For example, Plan of Conquest for: Denmark, Netherlands, Bulgaria, Persia, Yugoslavia, Phillipines. But even for these I would like to make them more complete. Here is the preliminary structure I have for storing "Plan of Conquest" data:

- land units needed
- air units needed
- naval units neeeded
- positioning for units
- 1st impulse objective hexes
- ground strikes
- invasions
- paradrops
- ground support
- objective hexes for complete conquest

Perhaps I could add oil needs, though that seems excessive. If the major power can't afford the oil, then why is it looking to conquer another country?

I originally thought to apply this design for minor countries, but a more elaborate variation might work for tackling major powers too (e.g., Opeation SeaLion). And then I figured it would be a real good idea for conquering smaller areas, especially single hexes (e.g., Gibraltar, Singapore, Truk, Honolulu, Malta, etc.). In fact, I am thinking that a standard 'package' for invading single hexes should be defined, where the package changes depending on the terrain, weather, and defenders.

This came out of my work on DOW by each major power. I saw that besides the political situation warranting the DOW, the JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) also had to have the military prowess and the requisite positioning prior to the DOW. So, in advance of deciding to DOW, the CIC (Commander in Chief) has to forewarn the JCS that a DOW will occur within the next 2 impulses. Then the JCS has to assemble and position the forces. The CIC only declares war when the JCS gives the ok. For instance, the DOW might be delayed due to weather.

If this works out the way I expect it too, the strategic plans will include these operational/tactical details and can be accessed by the various DMs (e.g., Admiralty, Air Marshal, Field Marshals) without haveing to develop them each time from first principles.

Comments?

I like the sound of this. Generalised solutions that can be tailored are usually a good idea. It sounds like some kind of recursive solution might work.

Cheers, Neilster

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: christo

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Germany has several of each of these air units (I believe), and would only lose 1 of each if Italy lend leases it. Germany can also demand it back at any time, and certainly would get it back if Italy were conquered.

Do you believe there should be more conditions checked before Germany lend leases one or more of these units? If so, what shuold they be?

It is probably a moot point anyway as Italy will be as able to utilise any of the planes for the same purpose as germany, be that supporting the invasion of the ussr or defending western europe.

Well not that much moot, as using "german" planes on Italian activity limits is a good thing for the EuroAxis.

[ptey]

I agree that the stuka and the 2 fighters should almost always be LLs to Italy.
I think however that there are a few more details to the LND3 that a worth examining. It should be taken into consideration what LND3's got at setup. The Italian LND3 forcepool in 39 is split pretty much 50/50 between good and bad plains, so if you get 2 good ones, you should imo not build any more LND3's before you can scrap all the bad ones, which isnt untill 42. At the same time, if Germany get some bad LND3's at startup, its propably a good idea to build some LND3's since the chance of getting a good one will be quite big.
This is imo especially the case if playing with the bounce combat option, since most of the stukas have a lower A2A rating than the LND3's, the LND3 have a somewhat better chance of surviving a bounce than the stukas. So Germany should imo focus more on LND3's than LND2's when playing with bounce conbat. Even though the stukas have slightly better tac factor than the LND3's, this is imo easily offset by the better range of of the LND3. Germany really lacks airmissions, and getting the stukas in the right positions all the time can be a real pain. This is somewhat easier with the LND3's since they require fewer rebases to get into position and dont have to be repositioned all the time at the front.
However, if also playing with the oil and variable reorganisation options, LND2's only costs half the oil and half the reorg points that a LND3 costs. This means that LND2's once again become more attractive for Germany. When playing with oil the euroaxis also have less production and it will be even harder for Italy to afford any LND3's.

If however the situation is the opposite of the above (Italy gets bad LND3's from the start while Germany gets good ones). Italy should perhaps consider building a couple of LND3's, while Germany shouldnt build any before it can scrap all the bad ones in the forcepool, meaning that the JU-88A1 should be lended. However most of the time i would prefer just to build the 3 cost Navs with Italy, even if they only have a tac value of 2 while most of the LND3's have 3, they are also much better at killing british and american amphibs.

When all that is said, the most likely thing is that you get a mix of good and bad LND3's with both Germany and Italy at setup. In that situation some of the things i wrote above still holds. So depending upon options i would most likely build some German LND3's in the first half of the game, while building none with Italy. This means that i would like to have the Ju-88A1 in the German forcepool, since its a medium good plain and thus increases the chance of getting a good LND3 when building one.
Then again, if you are a gambler you can also LL to Italy and let it rot in their forcepool, since it would both increase the chance of getting a very good and a bad one. If i feel im "ahead" i wouldnt try these kind of gambles, but if you are falling behind, seeking some of these gambles (and be so lucky that they go through) may help you back on track.

[lomyrin]

About Major Power Surrenders there occasionally occurs a gamey situation in France. Germany can knock out all the Fench units but not declare Vichy nor take more than half of the factory stacks or Paris so that France cannot surrender. This can leave France in a limbo and the US entry chits for Vichy or conquests are not rolled for. It also means that the CW is limited by foreign troop commitment rules from invervening in France.
 
Present rules have no mechanism to deal with this situation. 
 
Lars

[Mziln]

France could still build units, receive lend lease, and have partisans.

Just explaining the 1/2 factories rule.

13.7.6 Surrender

During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn’t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

France could still build units, receive lend lease, and have partisans.

Just explaining the 1/2 factories rule.

13.7.6 Surrender

During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn’t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

With the coastline and the resource hexes German controlled and the and half the factory stacks occupied there is no possible arrival point for any lendlease and partisans are not likely either. There would be 0 build.

Lars

[Mziln]

I assume that the cities under French control are Lyons, Paris, Tolouse, and Vichy. 
 
(1) Start over with a better French player.
(2) Don't commit all your units from North Africa to France.
(3) Wait until you have a CW leader who can support an invasion of France (18.2 who co-operates/foreign troop commitment). This will probably cause the Axis to trigger Vichy.
(4) If/when the USA enters the war this will probably cause the Axis to trigger Vichy.
 
 
In the case you have given:
 
For the army of France organized resistance has ended it is crushed and humbled. The Axis refuses to recognize any French goverment to discuss surrender terms (or draws out the negotiations). While the French distrust the Commonwealth who in their eyes failed to come to ther assistance.
 
Does that sound about right?
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

About Major Power Surrenders there occasionally occurs a gamey situation in France. Germany can knock out all the Fench units but not declare Vichy nor take more than half of the factory stacks or Paris so that France cannot surrender. This can leave France in a limbo and the US entry chits for Vichy or conquests are not rolled for. It also means that the CW is limited by foreign troop commitment rules from invervening in France.

Present rules have no mechanism to deal with this situation. 

Lars

So, I guess one consequence of this is that: if France can surrender, it should, once its build points are reduced to zero and its units in Metropolitan France are, say, 3 or less? [I realize that France might not be able to surrender if they hold too many factories.]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ptey

I agree that the stuka and the 2 fighters should almost always be LLs to Italy.
I think however that there are a few more details to the LND3 that a worth examining. It should be taken into consideration what LND3's got at setup. The Italian LND3 forcepool in 39 is split pretty much 50/50 between good and bad plains, so if you get 2 good ones, you should imo not build any more LND3's before you can scrap all the bad ones, which isnt untill 42. At the same time, if Germany get some bad LND3's at startup, its propably a good idea to build some LND3's since the chance of getting a good one will be quite big.
This is imo especially the case if playing with the bounce combat option, since most of the stukas have a lower A2A rating than the LND3's, the LND3 have a somewhat better chance of surviving a bounce than the stukas. So Germany should imo focus more on LND3's than LND2's when playing with bounce conbat. Even though the stukas have slightly better tac factor than the LND3's, this is imo easily offset by the better range of of the LND3. Germany really lacks airmissions, and getting the stukas in the right positions all the time can be a real pain. This is somewhat easier with the LND3's since they require fewer rebases to get into position and dont have to be repositioned all the time at the front.
However, if also playing with the oil and variable reorganisation options, LND2's only costs half the oil and half the reorg points that a LND3 costs. This means that LND2's once again become more attractive for Germany. When playing with oil the euroaxis also have less production and it will be even harder for Italy to afford any LND3's.

If however the situation is the opposite of the above (Italy gets bad LND3's from the start while Germany gets good ones). Italy should perhaps consider building a couple of LND3's, while Germany shouldnt build any before it can scrap all the bad ones in the forcepool, meaning that the JU-88A1 should be lended. However most of the time i would prefer just to build the 3 cost Navs with Italy, even if they only have a tac value of 2 while most of the LND3's have 3, they are also much better at killing british and american amphibs.

When all that is said, the most likely thing is that you get a mix of good and bad LND3's with both Germany and Italy at setup. In that situation some of the things i wrote above still holds. So depending upon options i would most likely build some German LND3's in the first half of the game, while building none with Italy. This means that i would like to have the Ju-88A1 in the German forcepool, since its a medium good plain and thus increases the chance of getting a good LND3 when building one.
Then again, if you are a gambler you can also LL to Italy and let it rot in their forcepool, since it would both increase the chance of getting a very good and a bad one. If i feel im "ahead" i wouldnt try these kind of gambles, but if you are falling behind, seeking some of these gambles (and be so lucky that they go through) may help you back on track.

I believe most of the pros and cons of this are filtered by the 2 requirements: Italy wants the air unit and is likely to spend build points on the unit type. Without the intent to build, Italy will not ask for the air unit.

Or are you suggesting that by lend leasing the unit to Italy, Germany removes a specific air unit it doesn't want from a group of air units that it wants to build; thereby making its force pool richer?

[ptey]

Most of the thoughts that i tried to convey on the subject, was naturally about if Italy wanted to build the plain or not. Apart from what i wrote, this is ofcourse also dependent on overall strategy by both the euroaxis and the allies, the losses you take, etc.
Most of the time, i dont think Italy should build that many LND3's - if any at all. But as i wrote, the 2 you get from the start of the global war scenario matters quite alot in this decision, and also the ones Germany gets.

Now, the plain in question will most likely be an average unit in the German Forcepool, so even if Italy doesnt want to build any LND3's and Germany have build a LND3 or two, but have gotten bad ones, the Ju-88A1 may now be below average. This means Germany can consider removing it by lend leasing it to Italy to improve the average quality in the LND3 pool.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: ptey

Most of the thoughts that i tried to convey on the subject, was naturally about if Italy wanted to build the plain or not. Apart from what i wrote, this is ofcourse also dependent on overall strategy by both the euroaxis and the allies, the losses you take, etc.
Most of the time, i dont think Italy should build that many LND3's - if any at all.

A few of factors play a role here, I think:
- if not playing with PiF there are much fewer planes, and (almost) all planes have value
- if using Italy mainly as a 'German Luftwaffe extension', using German resources to buy It ac and It doing lots of air actions (especially useful if the overall euro-axis strategy is to go after Russia in force), then lots of ac should be built (if It has a fair amount of BP and the 'primary' ac have been built already, then even the not-so-good LND3 could be built, imho - of course the poor ones will be scrapped asap).
- if not playing with pilots the each ac is more expensive, and there is not a way to choose which ac to pilot and put on map. In that case the LND3 becomes less useful.

(Again, one of the things that makes WiF a really great game is the large number of strategies and different views on what is useful to do - and most of those views actually turn out to be valid and useful, even when focusing on entirely different things [:)])

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I believe I will change from average/mean value to median value. That is, whether there are more or fewer air units in the force pool that are betterthan the lend lease air unit. When there are more, then the chances of randomly drawing an air unit that is better than the lend lease air unit is over 50%.

You have probably considered this already, but with the median value you lose info about the quality of the units.
E.g: a force pool contains a number of very poor ac, and the rest (a larger number) is of average strength. With the median value you cannot 'see' whether the poorer ac are 'very poor' or just 'a little below average'.
When playing with PiF/pilots that is not to much of a problem, since there are lots of ac anyway, and the poor ac can just be kept off map if necessary, but if playing without PiF then each ac becomes more important, and drawing a very poor ac can actually mean something.
So with median value the draw becomes more 'chancy' it seems (?).

Same problem probably arises when a major power is to determine whichs units to build. I.e. it is worth building a LND3 compared to the quality of the ac that is likely to be built.

Don't know what solution to present - maybe include both mean value and median in the considerations.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I believe I will change from average/mean value to median value. That is, whether there are more or fewer air units in the force pool that are betterthan the lend lease air unit. When there are more, then the chances of randomly drawing an air unit that is better than the lend lease air unit is over 50%.

You have probably considered this already, but with the median value you lose info about the quality of the units.
E.g: a force pool contains a number of very poor ac, and the rest (a larger number) is of average strength. With the median value you cannot 'see' whether the poorer ac are 'very poor' or just 'a little below average'.
When playing with PiF/pilots that is not to much of a problem, since there are lots of ac anyway, and the poor ac can just be kept off map if necessary, but if playing without PiF then each ac becomes more important, and drawing a very poor ac can actually mean something.
So with median value the draw becomes more 'chancy' it seems (?).

Same problem probably arises when a major power is to determine whichs units to build. I.e. it is worth building a LND3 compared to the quality of the ac that is likely to be built.

Don't know what solution to present - maybe include both mean value and median in the considerations.

Ok.

I'll add the condition that before asking for an air unit to be lend leased, it has to pass a certain threshold of goodness (most likely an ACV number - Air Combat Value). If it doesn't, we don't want it. It also has to be at or above the median value (ACV) of the air units of that type already in the force pool, or else it will decrease the probability of drawing the better air units. Remember, we can always ask for the air unit next turn, at which time the force pool may have changed due to builds, losses, and new arrivals.

There will also have to be some logic to handle when multiple air units of the type are being built. I.e., if we expect to build 4 F2s, then maybe asking for another F2 (or more) is warranted.

As for whether to build a unit type or not, that is based on the average/mean CV of the units of that unit type in the force pool. So if there is one really great SS armor unit sitting there plus 2 terrible armor units from Axis allies, the value of the SS unit will increase the mean/average above the value of the median unit, and therefore increase the desirability of building armor. Of course, we might also have instructions from the strategic plan to build all units of a given unit type (HQs come to mind).

[Froonp]

I saw comments about playing with or without PiF, but I seem to remember that MWiF will play with PiF all the time. Playing without PiF (or SiF) is not possible.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I saw comments about playing with or without PiF, but I seem to remember that MWiF will play with PiF all the time. Playing without PiF (or SiF) is not possible.

Yes. Pilots are optional, but SiF and PiF are always in effect.

[ptey]

Here's another idea (that you probably already thought about). If fx. Germany have 1 great SS armor and 2 bad minor country armors in its forcepool, it should be considered if any of those 2 minor country armors will arrive when the minors are at the brink of being conquered by the allies. 4 turns build time can be long. The same consideration should ofcourse also be done for some majors (Italy and France mostly).