When?

[Jeff Gilbert]

What do you mean? Old, fat, blad guy in the picture ... 
 
Heck, I thought I was looking in a mirror at one fine looking distinguished gentleman.   
[:)]

[Froonp]

Yakko’s World by Randy Rogel
(as sung by Brian Philbin of Metropolis)
Lyrics modified by Steven Hokanson, July 16, 1999 and May 16, 2006

You should record the song, and put it as a theme available for the MWiF player when he reads the credits for example, of when he is in the "relations" dialog where you see countries relationships. [:D]

[Neilster]

Yeah, I saw that episode of The Simpsons. [:D]

Actually, my Mum sings solo in front of hundreds of people at church. She kicks arse. My dad was really good too. I've won every karaoke competition I've ever been in (which admittedly isn't many). Singing is fun. I just don't do it much. Keep it up.

Cheers, Neilster

[morkin]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Countries that are still missing are:
Burkina Faso, Brunei, Central Africa, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Palau, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Singapore, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vatican, Micronesia, and Kyrgystan,

Montenegro?

[Neilster]

Abkhazia and Transnistria? Bit controversial those...but if you need an AK-74, RPG-7 or a T-54, put them on your holiday itinerary. [:D]

Cheers, Neilster

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: morkin

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Countries that are still missing are:
Burkina Faso, Brunei, Central Africa, Kazakhstan, Kiribati, Palau, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Singapore, Tonga, Tuvalu, Vatican, Micronesia, and Kyrgystan,

Montenegro?

Ah, yes.

But if you check the dates, I wrote that on May 16, 2006. Montenegro officially separated from Serbia on May 21, 2006 (saved by the bell[:D]).

There are a lot of partial names in the list (both Yemens, Korea, U. A. E.) and some extra words (Cuba Carribean, Bangladesh Asia). After all, this is just a song not an encyclopedia. As it is, there aren't enough remaining countries to make up an additional verse, much less fit them into the meter and get them to rhyme. And 195 countries seems a respectable quantitiy.[;)]

[willycube]

No disrespect intended of any kind Mr. Okeets but after reading all of these forums about this game I am getteing the feeling of helter skelter, after the terrible dissapointment of the conversion of Third Reich to the computer and the failure of such an attempt by people who charged a lot of money and delivered nothing. Are you a company attempting to convert this game to the computer or seperate groups of individuals working on it when you can? Do you work on this game full time or when you can? I ask these questions because the game looks interesting to me and would love to see it completed before I end up in a nursing home {I'm 65 years old} You say Origins 2008, are you saying maybe a year from now? Not being a wise guy, just would like some facts about the programming. Also if I have not ruined my raport with you too badly I would like to be a playtester as I am retired and have plenty of time on my hands.

Willycube

Bill Bowen

bowenw@rcn.com

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: willycube
No disrespect intended of any kind Mr. Okeets but after reading all of these forums about this game I am getteing the feeling of helter skelter, after the terrible dissapointment of the conversion of Third Reich to the computer and the failure of such an attempt by people who charged a lot of money and delivered nothing. Are you a company attempting to convert this game to the computer or seperate groups of individuals working on it when you can? Do you work on this game full time or when you can? I ask these questions because the game looks interesting to me and would love to see it completed before I end up in a nursing home {I'm 65 years old} You say Origins 2008, are you saying maybe a year from now? Not being a wise guy, just would like some facts about the programming. Also if I have not ruined my raport with you too badly I would like to be a playtester as I am retired and have plenty of time on my hands.

Willycube

Bill Bowen

bowenw@rcn.com

Perhaps some more reading would help.

The thread Directory (first post) gives an overview of the rest of this forum. I usually point readers who are new to MWIF to that thread as a good starting place.

This thread (When?) contains monthly updates (written by me), starting from July 2005, which is when I got involved with the project.

Helter skelter? The game is enormous, and the pieces interact with each other heavily. It is very difficult to find any one piece that can be done in isolation. So, the work requires pulling together many disparate portions of the code and making sure they are synchronized. For example, this morning I reviewed and commented all the code related to whether/when units/countries cooperate. That involved which countries are at war, which were conquered, which were liberated, special units (Italy's AOI unit), territorial units, minor countries, subcountries, Vichy France, ...). Actually, I started this morning looking at determining supply and that had a reference to which countries/units cooperate, so I needed to ascertain that the ccde for cooperation worked correctly (a few minor corrections were needed). In order to keep my efficiency high, I generally have several types of tasks at the top of my queue. Foremost are debugging tasks (which are hard work, often with nothing tangible accomplished after hours of effort), but I keep some mindless editing task available for when my brain functions are at an ebb, and I maintain a "brand new code" task on the list so I have a sense of forward progress.

As an example of editing tasks, I finished entering the Scenario Data last week and currently I'm typing in the hand written notes for the AI Opponent I made while traveling.

For brand new code tasks, yesterday I finished coding and validating the routine to make sure that the USSR and Germans set up such that a unit is adjacent to every hex of the their common frontline. And today I continued an effort I started last month with rewriting the supply routines (from scratch).

At present my overall thrust is to get version 4.0 out to the beta testers which involves primarily debugging tasks but I also would like 4.0 to at least permit setting up all 11 scenarios and with roughly 8 major powers per sceanrio, that means checking out (i.e., alpha testing) the setup routines for 80+ countries. The setup instructions for WIF are 40+ pages of fine print, with many items that are unique to individual scenarios.

So yes, developing MWIF is not straightforward, like writing code for chess with only 6 unit types, 1 terrain type, and 64 squares total. But there is an overall task list. Tasks are being completed. And there is a schedule measured out in increments of 5 hours. Omniscience is not part of my skill set, so the best I can do is give estimates.

Finally, Greyshaft maintins the list of beta testers, so you should send a PM (personal message) to him.

[willycube]

Forgive me Steve if I sound a little frustratred with the forums I have been reading, I meant helter skelter in another way not as any kind of a slur. You did not answer the oigins 2008 question and I am sure you have been bombarded [excuse the pun] about the release date. I sort of jumped the gun but when you see a game of great possibilities, you wan't it yesterday, and you are probably right I did not read enough of the forums.

willycube

[balto]

I cannot understand any of that big-brain stuff Mr. OKeets is talking about, but man, that sounds great!!!  I cannot wait to get my hands on this monster!  If I were intelligent, I would give you a hand.  I am pretty good with crayons, maybe I could help you color some of the counters [;)].  Thanks for all the hard work

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: balto

I cannot understand any of that big-brain stuff Mr. OKeets is talking about, but man, that sounds great!!!  I cannot wait to get my hands on this monster!  If I were intelligent, I would give you a hand.  I am pretty good with crayons, maybe I could help you color some of the counters [;)].  Thanks for all the hard work

There are separate threads for most of the introductory tutorials (1 -> 7, if I remember correctly), if you want to learn more about WIF (board game version) and MWIF (Matrix's computer game version).

[abuspud]

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...

[jchastain]

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...

With all due respect, your expectations might be a bit high. Let's face a few realities here. Grognard gamers like us are a distinct minority. Most gamers want dazzling graphics and shoot-em-up titles and that is what is produced en masse. The reason dozens of major corporations are not rushing to build highly complex and detailed computer wargames is because there is very little profit in doing so. The reason why a major company didn't release this in 1999 and do 6 updates since then is because we are a minority community and companies can't earn big bucks serving us. That long wait isn't because of some global conspiracy, it is because this is a niche market and no one is willing to make a major investment and produce a multi-million dollar title when the top-end sales potential is limited to a few thousand units. You really need to understand that we're lucky to have this game progressing at all. Making this game isn't the world's greatest financial opportunity for these guys, it is a labor of love that they hope will also make them a little money.

So yes, it is moving a bit slowly. If you have a major investment you'd like to make so they could hire a large team and move it along faster, I am sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you. Absent that though, understand that it won't come together quickly and that when it is released, it will still have bugs. With a game this complex, there is no way they could ever do enough testing to eliminate them all regardless of how much money they had to spend. But the good news is, as a labor of love they want to get it right. And as a labor of love, if history is any guide based on other Matrix releases, they will continue to support and enhance the game long after the majority of sales are behind them and there is no real economic incentive to do so.

Like you, I'd love to have this game in my hands right now. Like you, I'd love for it to be a perfect piece of software with no bugs at all. But we all must understand and accept the market realities of projects such as this one. While I love to stomp my feet and scream about the customer always being right as much as the next guy, the relationship must be more reciprocal in a small niche market. They need us to buy the games - that is absolutely true. But there won't be a lot of others lining up to take their place and do it better, faster & cheaper if we choose not to support them.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: jchastain

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...

With all due respect, your expectations might be a bit high. Let's face a few realities here. Grognard gamers like us are a distinct minority. Most gamers want dazzling graphics and shoot-em-up titles and that is what is produced en masse. The reason dozens of major corporations are not rushing to build highly complex and detailed computer wargames is because there is very little profit in doing so. The reason why a major company didn't release this in 1999 and do 6 updates since then is because we are a minority community and companies can't earn big bucks serving us. That long wait isn't because of some global conspiracy, it is because this is a niche market and no one is willing to make a major investment and produce a multi-million dollar title when the top-end sales potential is limited to a few thousand units. You really need to understand that we're lucky to have this game progressing at all. Making this game isn't the world's greatest financial opportunity for these guys, it is a labor of love that they hope will also make them a little money.

So yes, it is moving a bit slowly. If you have a major investment you'd like to make so they could hire a large team and move it along faster, I am sure they'd be willing to discuss it with you. Absent that though, understand that it won't come together quickly and that when it is released, it will still have bugs. With a game this complex, there is no way they could ever do enough testing to eliminate them all regardless of how much money they had to spend. But the good news is, as a labor of love they want to get it right. And as a labor of love, if history is any guide based on other Matrix releases, they will continue to support and enhance the game long after the majority of sales are behind them and there is no real economic incentive to do so.

Like you, I'd love to have this game in my hands right now. Like you, I'd love for it to be a perfect piece of software with no bugs at all. But we all must understand and accept the market realities of projects such as this one. While I love to stomp my feet and scream about the customer always being right as much as the next guy, the relationship must be more reciprocal in a small niche market. They need us to buy the games - that is absolutely true. But there won't be a lot of others lining up to take their place and do it better, faster & cheaper if we choose not to support them.

Jeez...all he said was that computer WiF was supposed to be out by 1999, which is true. [8|] BTW, I know this is a different project. I've been involved since the beginning.

Cheers, Neilster

[Twotribes]

LOL, my experience is that "tolerance" for bugs and glitches is low even if a game comes out before you even knew it was being made. Not that I would ever be intolerant ( please do not look in any of the game forums I play) LOL.

[abuspud]

Umm - don't know what in my post led you to think I don't understand any of that. I should - there's very little in your comment that hasn't been posted in some form many times since 1998. In fact, I thought the whole point of taking the project away from Chris and giving it to Matrix was to move it out of the "labor of love" category.

You really need to understand that we're lucky to have this game progressing at all.

Why do I really need to understand that? When Chris was running the show as a labor of love, we were really lucky to have the game progressing because we were part of the progression, and every advancement in the game was a cause for celebration. Now it's been years of knowing that somewhere some beta testers are probably having a good time with it. That doesn't make me lucky at all. What will make ME lucky at this point is seeing this puppy actually published in a form that was worth the wait, hopefully before my son leaves home for college and I still have a chance of interesting him.


So, no, my post wasn't about 'expectations.' My 'expectations' are very realistic, thank you. I understand the concept of a niche market; I also understand that a generation of potential additions to this niche market is passing you by without even the Chris-era teasers to keep us intrigued ... 'nuff said.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: abuspud
In fact, I thought the whole point of taking the project away from Chris and giving it to Matrix was to move it out of the "labor of love" category.

I wanted to answer you that I too was involved in Chris' days of CWiF since March or April 1998, and that I kept being involved in the Matrix's days of CWiF because it still is in the "labor of love" category.

[willycube]

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...

The reason I apoligized Abuspud is because I probably did not read enough of the forums, your right they probably were not in order [the apoligies] I used the word helter skelter for a reason that someone took exception to. I was trying to find out if this game was being done by a company [Matrix] or a bunch of programmers doing it as a labor of love [nothing wrong with that]. Helter skelter came out of me because one of the moderators was saying this guy was doing this when he could and the other guy when he could, or he did not hear from this other guy for awhile. so on and on. What I was trying to find out was who was doing this game, and also I did not receive an answer about origins 2008 when I asked about it.
I guess I was trying to find out is this game ever going to come to market, if it is going to be another 2 years than forget about it I will probably be in a nursing home by then.

Willy

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: willycube

ORIGINAL: abuspud

LOL - don't think apologies are in order. I remember when the game was originally announced - I was very excited, as I was going to be posted to Cairo in 1999 and would have no FTF opponents for a while. The game was supposed to be out by then, giving me a chance to get my fix. Origins 2008? Okay, I'll probably buy a copy, as will all of the others of that rapidly dwindling pool of Wiffers who haven't died of old age - but having waited that long, tolerance for bugs and glitches will be pretty low...

The reason I apoligized Abuspud is because I probably did not read enough of the forums, your right they probably were not in order [the apoligies] I used the word helter skelter for a reason that someone took exception to. I was trying to find out if this game was being done by a company [Matrix] or a bunch of programmers doing it as a labor of love [nothing wrong with that]. Helter skelter came out of me because one of the moderators was saying this guy was doing this when he could and the other guy when he could, or he did not hear from this other guy for awhile. so on and on. What I was trying to find out was who was doing this game, and also I did not receive an answer about origins 2008 when I asked about it.
I guess I was trying to find out is this game ever going to come to market, if it is going to be another 2 years than forget about it I will probably be in a nursing home by then.

Willy

The top line of my monthly report gives an expected release date. So I believe I answer that question every month.

Sorry to hear about your failing health. The pains of growing older are better than the alternatives though.

[freeboy]

I never played the board game and this project looks ambitious.. I am not sureabout the ai in a game of this magnatude.. keep the info flowing .. thanks