STARVATION LEVELS!!

[heenanc]

Currently trying to starve out a jap unit in china.

1, There is about 80'000 troops in Canton.
2, Canton is an allied control base.
3, Hong kong is a allied controlled base.
4, The jap units have no supplies left at all.
5, There is no supply route available for the unit to gain new supply and all routes away have allied divisions stopping supplies.

Q: How long will it take for these units to be completely destroyed so there is none left, will this happen? Will bombing/bombarding help? and to what extent?


Thought I'd point out that I've been shocking attacking it but they are still able to defend themselves at better odds and getting more kills per attack than I do even though they have no supplied [&:][&:][&:]

[Mike Solli]

To me it sounds like a perfect training opportunity for your air force.  Base some planes at Canton and/or Hong Kong and keep bombing them until they go away.  In the mean time, you'll train your aircraft nicely and take few losses.

[heenanc]

Yeah that's not a bad idea but I want to move all the defending unit on to the next target without leaving 80'000 jap troop behind. Do supplie - less troops starve and if so how quick is what I was trying to say, also do you get points for them?

[heenanc]

Cheers for the advice though

[wdolson]

Starving out troops is virtually impossible.  I isolated a pocket of Japanese troops in China in January 1942 (vs. the AI) and they are still there in mid-August.  I had another pocket of troops outside Shanghai for a couple of months with constant attacks and I just finally killed them all off. 

Eliminating cut off pockets is such a pain. 

Bill

[Mike Solli]

Yes, troops without supplies will starve but I can't give you a timeline.  It's been said that Allied troops starve more quickly than Japanese troops but I can't argue one way or the other. 

[ned]

Well in reality actual starvation of that many troops in that well populated part of China would take a very long time. I would think running out of ammunition and thus the ability to fight would go away long before they starved to death.

[heenanc]

To wdolson

In the case when you suceeded in eliminating the pocket how many troop do you think you destroyed?

[RUPD3658]

Bombardment speeds up the process.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: heenanc

Currently trying to starve out a jap unit in china.

1, There is about 80'000 troops in Canton.
2, Canton is an allied control base.
3, Hong kong is a allied controlled base.
4, The jap units have no supplies left at all.
5, There is no supply route available for the unit to gain new supply and all routes away have allied divisions stopping supplies.

Q: How long will it take for these units to be completely destroyed so there is none left, will this happen? Will bombing/bombarding help? and to what extent?

I had flashbacks of story problems from my math class.

[RUPD3658]

X always =2 and Y always =3

In a pinch this was my guess it I was usually right. [;)]

[AmiralLaurent]

It seems to me that starvation will hit some squads per unit each day, the unit being a NLF or a division apparently not being taken into account. So while a NLF may starve in one or two months, a division may take years.

On the other hand, troops with no more supplies have their AV divided by 4 and can't repair disabled squads, so to hold off 80k straving Japanese, 20-30k Allied with forts should be enough...

Any kind of bombardment (air, naval or artillery) will help as any Jap hit will never come back to able status, and the next "hit" (from battle or starvation) it will take will destroy it.

By the way, IRL, there were still hundred of Japanese at Saipan more than one year after the "end" of the campaign here, with occasional battles and many patrol clashes.

An example of the CINCPOA communiqué of 22 May 1945:

"In mopping up operations on Iwo Island and the Island of the Marianas from May 13 through May 19, U. S. forces killed 94 of the enemy and captured 134."

[Vetamur]

In my older game Im at the opposite side..Ive isolated a few different pockets of supply-less Chinese armies. I left 2 as training areas and the others I took down.. it sometimes took 2 months of rotating bombardments with deliberate attacks and (because Im sometimes impatient) some shock attacks. Gradually the casualties on the Chinese side get higher and higher and towards the end I shift to all shock attacks at start killing 5ooo to 8000 chinese a day while only losing 100 or so.  Just takes time..

[AmiralLaurent]

By the way, against surrounded troops using shock attacks is a bad idea, deliberate attack will kill the same number of defenders will less casualties. Shock attack will be useful only at the end, once surrounded units will start to surrender.

[moses]

Do a search for my old thread "Starvation impossible". (Sorry I don't know how to post links but I just did the search and its still there.)

Basically I placed two Japanese divisions on an isolated island with no supply and then let the game run for a year. At the end of a complete year with no supply at all not a single infantry squad had died. One division had 117 disabled squads and 330 good squads. The other division was at 67/280.

On the plus side all low density equipment had been lost. Also I had placed a couple small units such as SNLF's, base forces etc. This had all died by the end of the year. Note that this is an old thread but I'm not aware that subsequent patches have changed this appriciably.

So starvation alone will not do it. And with the isolated unit bug you will not be able to get the unit to go into the elimination routine as per the manual. An 80,000 man force isolated in a city will take a long time to dig out.

Basically you have to bombard daily and deliberate attack every 3 or 4 turns. At the beginning you should deliberate attack less frequently as the surrounded enemy still has functioning artillery and will inflict greater losses on your troops. Later on your troops will take fewer losses and you can attack more often. I would guess it will take your three months.

You should see this as a fantastic training opportunity for your troops. Not many of your squads will ever actually be killed as long as you rest them before you reach a 50% disablement level. But these repeated combat opportunities will allow you to train to high levels of ecperience.

Another trick is to wait until after you have destoyed all of his artillery and are getting high odds with each deliberate attack. Then you leave a open hex and tempt your opponent to break the siege. If he moves into the adjacent hex then your next attack will easily retreat the enemy with heavy loss.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: heenanc

To wdolson

In the case when you suceeded in eliminating the pocket how many troop do you think you destroyed?

I think it was a couple hundred thousand. A huge number of Japanese troops had been forced back to Shanghai when other cities were taken. Most were base forces pushed ahead of the Chinese death star that descended on the city.

As far as being out of supply goes, if a unit has 0 supply, shouldn't it be out of ammo too? Units without any supply at all seem to be able to scrounge up enough ammo to shoot back at any attackers for an indefinite period of time. I can sort of see issolated pockets of Japanese or Chinese hanging on physically in the Chinese countryside. There was a lot of agriculture there and they could probably scrounge something to eat. However, if they are completely out of supply, they wouldn't have any ammunition, so their ability to inflict casualties on an attacking force should be bearly nil. When I was trying to reduce the pocket around Shanghai, I would take 5000 casualties a day, even though the Japanese were out of supply.

I've also found that warships with no fuel fight just as well as fully fueled ships. It would be a little difficult to maneuver without fuel.

Bill

[dtravel]

Its Lego Blocks logistics.  They disassemble the casualties to use as ammo.
 
The reverse is also true, when they have excess amounts of ammo they use some of it to build new soldiers and planes with.
 
[:D]

[String]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: heenanc

To wdolson

In the case when you suceeded in eliminating the pocket how many troop do you think you destroyed?

I think it was a couple hundred thousand. A huge number of Japanese troops had been forced back to Shanghai when other cities were taken. Most were base forces pushed ahead of the Chinese death star that descended on the city.

As far as being out of supply goes, if a unit has 0 supply, shouldn't it be out of ammo too? Units without any supply at all seem to be able to scrounge up enough ammo to shoot back at any attackers for an indefinite period of time. I can sort of see issolated pockets of Japanese or Chinese hanging on physically in the Chinese countryside. There was a lot of agriculture there and they could probably scrounge something to eat. However, if they are completely out of supply, they wouldn't have any ammunition, so their ability to inflict casualties on an attacking force should be bearly nil. When I was trying to reduce the pocket around Shanghai, I would take 5000 casualties a day, even though the Japanese were out of supply.

I've also found that warships with no fuel fight just as well as fully fueled ships. It would be a little difficult to maneuver without fuel.

Bill

One can always capture ammo and supplies from the enemy, smuggle it in through the encircling units etc. It's not much but still enough to inflict some casualties.

[AmiralLaurent]

Milo is selling them ammunitions and is using Yossarian's B-24 to paradrop them.

[heenanc]

Alright!!!  [:)][:)][:)]
 
Give you an update, never really tried to starve them out after the negative info placed here yesterday, however within 6 days of delebrate attack and then 2 days of shock attack I managed to get it down from 80'000 to 20'000 taking out huge numbers with the shock attacks. This I was please with as I had the impression it would take alot longer. Cheers for all the advice!!