Flak question

[spence]

I recently attacked an Industry target with around 100 heavy bombers. The bombers hit the target at 2000, 4000, 7000 ft. I was wondering if the flak defense was split up by this tactic (which would seem logical) or whether the whole flak attacked each group at each altitude?



Day Air attack on Hanoi , at 36,37


Allied aircraft
Liberator III x 36
B-17E Fortress x 35
B-24D Liberator x 36


Allied aircraft losses
Liberator III: 5 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 32

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
9 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
4 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
2 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet


This was PBEM so I don't know how many flak guns/types were involved in the defense.

[Nikademus]

each airgoup is attacked as it bombs assuming the flak can fire at it.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: spence

I recently attacked an Industry target with around 100 heavy bombers. The bombers hit the target at 2000, 4000, 7000 ft. I was wondering if the flak defense was split up by this tactic (which would seem logical) or whether the whole flak attacked each group at each altitude?



Day Air attack on Hanoi , at 36,37


Allied aircraft
Liberator III x 36
B-17E Fortress x 35
B-24D Liberator x 36


Allied aircraft losses
Liberator III: 5 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 32

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
9 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
4 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 7000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 4000 feet
2 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Liberator III bombing at 2000 feet


This was PBEM so I don't know how many flak guns/types were involved in the defense.

With those chosen altitudes 90% of the flak present at the target didn´t fire at all... only at the bombers at 7000 feet a little more guns were able to shoot at.

[spence]

Actually now that I look carefully at the result it appears from the damage to a/c that:

The lowest altitude a/c (all the Liberator IIIs) got hit by the flak the most
The medium altitude a/c (all the B-24Ds) got hit somewhat less
The hi altitude a/c (all the B-17Es) didn't take any flak damage at all

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: spence

Actually now that I look carefully at the result it appears from the damage to a/c that:

The lowest altitude a/c (all the Liberator IIIs) got hit by the flak the most
The medium altitude a/c (all the B-24Ds) got hit somewhat less
The hi altitude a/c (all the B-17Es) didn't take any flak damage at all

probably because only the 13mm AA MGs did shoot at your bombers. Though I think at 7000 feet also other AA guns could have been shooting. But the biggest number of "shooting" AA was surely 13mm MGs so those should have it easier to hit the lowest planes...

would be good to know what your opponent really had at your target...

[spence]

I suppose you could ask him...strangely he seems to feel the need to station fighters there now[:D]

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: spence

Actually now that I look carefully at the result it appears from the damage to a/c that:

The lowest altitude a/c (all the Liberator IIIs) got hit by the flak the most
The medium altitude a/c (all the B-24Ds) got hit somewhat less
The hi altitude a/c (all the B-17Es) didn't take any flak damage at all

probably because only the 13mm AA MGs did shoot at your bombers. Though I think at 7000 feet also other AA guns could have been shooting. But the biggest number of "shooting" AA was surely 13mm MGs so those should have it easier to hit the lowest planes...

would be good to know what your opponent really had at your target...

I thought the Jap Flak Gap got debunked. I remember making a graph showing the targetable altitudes for Japanese AAA....

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: castor troy

probably because only the 13mm AA MGs did shoot at your bombers. Though I think at 7000 feet also other AA guns could have been shooting. But the biggest number of "shooting" AA was surely 13mm MGs so those should have it easier to hit the lowest planes...

would be good to know what your opponent really had at your target...

I thought the Jap Flak Gap got debunked. I remember making a graph showing the targetable altitudes for Japanese AAA....

Nope... the FLAK gap is here all the time... in the case above only 13mm HMG was used (justa s it was pointed out)... [:(]


Please check the extensive threads I started regarding this....


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Here are my original threads:

#1 (2005)
"IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA..."

tm.asp?m=960298&mpage=1


#2 (2006)
"Humble request for Don and Joe regarding AA WitP programming..."

tm.asp?m=1131500&mpage=1



Here is most recent thread:


The Flak Gap

tm.asp?m=1461551



Leo "Apollo11"

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: spence

Actually now that I look carefully at the result it appears from the damage to a/c that:

The lowest altitude a/c (all the Liberator IIIs) got hit by the flak the most
The medium altitude a/c (all the B-24Ds) got hit somewhat less
The hi altitude a/c (all the B-17Es) didn't take any flak damage at all

probably because only the 13mm AA MGs did shoot at your bombers. Though I think at 7000 feet also other AA guns could have been shooting. But the biggest number of "shooting" AA was surely 13mm MGs so those should have it easier to hit the lowest planes...

would be good to know what your opponent really had at your target...

17-21 75mm AA Guns - Effect -15 Ceiling 25,000

3-4 40mm (2) AA Guns - Effect 60 - Celing 18,000

7-8 13mm(2) AA Guns - Effect 24 - Ceiling 4,300

[castor troy]

so there were 7-8 13mm MGs shooting at the bombers at 2000 and 4000 ft and 3-4 40mm AA guns shooting at the bombers at 7000 ft...

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Here are my original threads:

#1 (2005)
"IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA..."

tm.asp?m=960298&mpage=1


#2 (2006)
"Humble request for Don and Joe regarding AA WitP programming..."

tm.asp?m=1131500&mpage=1



Here is most recent thread:


The Flak Gap

tm.asp?m=1461551



Leo "Apollo11"

Not taking any point of view here, because I think in the last flak thread JoeW verified that AA guns with a max altitude over 25,500 do not fire below 6000-8000 feet depending on max altitude.

But I am curious as to what average flak losses of an attack of this kind looked like in the Pacific War (if indeed there were attacks of this kind, considering the altitude).

At the notorious Schweinfurt/Regensburg raid, 8th AF suffered about 10% losses (due mostly to fighters), and this was considered prohibitive - of course they were flying much higher too.

Any info out there on relatively low level attacks?

[RUPD3658]

Recent flak losses caused by 105mm Heavy AA guns:

Day Air attack on Nagasaki , at 58,42


Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 282


Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 destroyed, 39 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 121

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
15 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
15 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
15 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
11 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet

Trust me, there is no flak gap.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Recent flak losses caused by 105mm Heavy AA guns:

Day Air attack on Nagasaki , at 58,42


Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 282


Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 destroyed, 39 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 121

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
15 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
15 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
15 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
11 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 6000 feet

Trust me, there is no flak gap.

what was present? Only 105 mm guns? If only AA regiments then there were 13mm MGs AND 105 mm guns. And all the kills would have been achieved by 13mm MGs.

Previous tests have more than once proved that a 105mm AA gun don´t shoot at targets at 6000 ft.

THERE IS A FLAK GAP...

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Previous tests have more than once proved that a 105mm AA gun don´t shoot at targets at 6000 ft.

THERE IS A FLAK GAP...

Maybe we are thinking different things when we say "flak gap". To me it means that there is some altitude that Japanese AAA can not fire at at all. They have no weapon that will shoot at planes flying at that altitude. I know that is not right. For any given altitude the Japanese have something that can shoot down Allied aircraft.

[jwilkerson]

If the editor range of the AA/DP weapon is over 25000 feet then the AA "floor" (minimum altitude) is 1/4 of the editor range, i.e. the weapon will not fire below the floor. So 28000 foot weapon would not fire below 7000 feet. 30000 foot weapon would not fire below 7500 feet, etc.

Of course when making all these claims and counter claims, make sure everyone is stating which DB, like stock or MOD X ... some MODs change the device values.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Here are my original threads:

#1 (2005)
"IMPORTANT: Huge undefended "empty" zone in AA..."

tm.asp?m=960298&mpage=1


#2 (2006)
"Humble request for Don and Joe regarding AA WitP programming..."

tm.asp?m=1131500&mpage=1



Here is most recent thread:


The Flak Gap

tm.asp?m=1461551



Leo "Apollo11"

Not taking any point of view here, because I think in the last flak thread JoeW verified that AA guns with a max altitude over 25,500 do not fire below 6000-8000 feet depending on max altitude.

But I am curious as to what average flak losses of an attack of this kind looked like in the Pacific War (if indeed there were attacks of this kind, considering the altitude).

At the notorious Schweinfurt/Regensburg raid, 8th AF suffered about 10% losses (due mostly to fighters), and this was considered prohibitive - of course they were flying much higher too.

Any info out there on relatively low level attacks?

I asked this number of times myself... [;)]

It appears that there were NONE low level (i.e. 6000ft) massive attacks by US heavy bombers in broad daylight against Japanese targets with strong FLAK defenses (or at least I was unable to find info nor some other interested users who post here were able to find it as well).

BTW, the Rabaul was called the FLAK city (or similar) but I didn't find (again) any reference of low and slow heavy bombers attack in broad daylight against it (and 6000 ft = 2000 m = 2 km is very very low for heavy bombers attacking in formations))...

If anyone has any info about such attacks please come forward!


Leo "Apollo11"