Rigging The Game

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

[vahauser]

Nikademus,

Until now, I had expected better from you.  I'm not sure why you want to provoke me.  And I'm not sure why you want to ruin this thread.  Will you tell me why?


Korpraali V,

See my comments to Nikademus above.  I consider thread hijacking to be pretty despicable.


EDIT: I expect this sort of behavior from some posters on this forum, but until now I'd not expected it from Korpraali or Nikademus.

[Goblin]

Turning Mines OFF is an enormous disadvantage for the computer. I leave Mines ON for the computer and I simply choose to never use mines (or barbed wire or dragons teeth) myself.

I have to agree with this. I am a bit confused on why anyone would think this is a good thing for the AI.




Goblin

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Nikademus,

Until now, I had expected better from you. I'm not sure why you want to provoke me. And I'm not sure why you want to ruin this thread. Will you tell me why?


Korpraali V,

See my comments to Nikademus above. I consider thread hijacking to be pretty despicable.


EDIT: I expect this sort of behavior from some posters on this forum, but until now I'd not expected it from Korpraali or Nikademus.

My apologies....but your last response to a simple was just too hilarious. I wanted an encore. [;)]

P.S. you need to lighten up. [:)]

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Nikademus,

Until now, I had expected better from you. I'm not sure why you want to provoke me. And I'm not sure why you want to ruin this thread. Will you tell me why?


Korpraali V,

See my comments to Nikademus above. I consider thread hijacking to be pretty despicable.


EDIT: I expect this sort of behavior from some posters on this forum, but until now I'd not expected it from Korpraali or Nikademus.

My apologies. As you can see from the first posts, all started with harmless jokes between me and Alby. I guess that wasn't intented to continue this long from either of us.

Truth be said, I'm not against you or what you say. But I'd sometimes hope that you'd say it little more polite way. Naturally, that is what I hope with some others in here too. Not all comments are in need to be commented at all or handled as an personal attack - even if it's one, that's mostly the attacker's personal problem.

This is only a game (although an excellent one), and we all have real life which is way more important. SPWAW or discussing about it is something we do not need to take death serious. That'll only lead to heartattack [;)]

This as a general reminder, not directed to anyone especially.

[vahauser]

Okay.  I agree.  Let's move on.
 
You're gonna keep the thread open, Goblin?

[Goblin]

Yes.

[vahauser]

Good.
 
Just waiting to hear from Riun T and/or Glenn.
 
 

[FlashfyreSP]

I notice you haven't listed AutoRally ON as an advantage...personally, I rank that as a 7.

[Riun T]

So VA why don't u try finishing taskforce anders?? or try out what I'm getting my butt punted around the battlefield with right now,, I'm on turn 5 of the 7th battle in the long long road campaign. so far my almost exclusively indian core has fought 6 very hard draws,[&:] and I'm used to winning alot more than this as u could easily calculate by the example of the flash campaign,, I guess that has been my problem with U and the way u come across,since u started posting months ago on your "extreme challenge campaign"
U claim this game is from what I gather by the tone of your posts,"is almost boreing for the ease in which u can dominate the AI with your "POWER GAMING". but yet threw whatever life issues come around and as time goes by in the forum more of us are noticing that your failing to provide the "meat and potatoes" tangible pictorial evidence of someone who claims to be able to beat this game on a whim! I don't think u've tried every scenario,, I don't think U've tried all the mini campaigns,, I really don't think U've got the staying power or mental fortitude to actually convince any of us that U've actually completed a FULL campaign but yet you continue to spout off with the kind of reteric that would leed junior members or new attendees to believe your some kind of GURU with this game,, so if I sound a little brash or cynical, Its all because I guess I didn't catch your name or avitar on the credits for this great game..

[vahauser]

FlashFyre,
 
I play with Fast Artillery ON and Auto Rally ON just to save time.  I'm going to have to spend some time thinking about how Auto Rally ON gives me more of an advantage than Auto Rally OFF (other than the time saved).
 
 
Riun T,
 
You keep coming right back to issues that don't matter much to me.  What does it matter if I complete a campaign or not?  Completing a campaign is not relevant to whether I know how to play the game or not.  Completing a campaign is more a matter of endurance instead of playing skill.  I stopped playing Group Anders Long Long Road not because I got bored, but because nobody was interested in what I was doing.  You yourself have said that my Group Anders Long Long Road was worthless.  Why should I start up Group Anders again if it is worthless?
 
Also, you play using Standard 8.40.  I play using Enhanced DVRN.  The two games are different.  I prefer Enhanced DVRN and have no desire to play Standard 8.40 anymore.  So whatever is happening to your Indians using Standard 8.40 is different from what would happen to anybody else's Indians using Enhanced DVRN.
 
Also, what does it matter whether my name is on the credits of Steel Panthers?  Do you think that Gary Grigsby could beat you in a PBEM game?  Hell, I don't think Gary Grigsby could even beat Alby (no offense, Alby).  Do you think that Mike Wood could beat me?  Do you think it matters?  The best players are almost never the game designers.  Game designers are too busy doing other things to actually play the games they design.  The best players are the people who actually play the game day after day after day.  Some of the very best SPWAW gamers I know don't even post on these forums.  They are too busy playing the game.  Your comments in this regard are irrelevant.
 
Here is what is relevant.  I told you what I was willing to do.  You start a thread describing the core and the rules and the guidelines you want me to use, and let's see what happens.  My only requirement is that the campaign must use Enhanced DVRN.
 
 

[FlashfyreSP]

Vahauser

AutoRally isn't just a "time saver"...it acts like a "nanny", doing the work of conducting rally attempts for all units still capable. Sure, it saves the player the effort of actually reviewing his forces and rallying those units he feels need it, but that makes it an advantage because it removes the onus of doing so from the player.

With it ON, the player's units will always be checked for rallying at the end of each turn, and all rally attempts will be made; with it OFF, all Rallying must be done manually by the player, and no rallying occurs at the end of the turn. If the player fails to check a unit, and it is Pinned, it stays that way during the enemy turn. Retreating and Routed units will run away, instead of "magically" rallying just enough to get shot up the next turn. This can be beneficial to the player, as it gives him the opportunity to allow units that are Routed/Retreating to actually retreat from danger, when the chances of successfully Rallying the unit during the player's turn are low.

Take this example:
P1 has a squad that is in an exposed location, and has come under fire from an enemy unit. At the start of the P1 turn, the unit is Retreating, with 50+ Suppression; two hexes behind the unit is a lower slope, which is out of LOS of the enemy unit. To get there, P1 has two options:
OPTION 1: try to conduct Rallies to return the unit to Ready status, hope that it recovers enough MPs to move 2 hexes, and then pray that the unit isn't OpFired against while moving into the 1st hex.
OPTION 2: leave the unit alone and watch it retreat the 2 hexes during the Retreat Phase at the end of the turn, taking no OpFire and ending up out of LOS of the enemy unit.

With AutoRally ON, Option 2 is a no-go. The game will automatically try to rally the unit, and, if it succeeds just once, the unit will become Pinned. No moving out of LOS. And the enemy unit will be able to fire on it again next turn, with a much beter chance To Hit.

With AutoRally OFF, Option 2 works.

In summary:
a. AutoRally ON prevents the player from missing rally attempts, and removes the onus of conducting those checks from the player.
b. AutoRally ON prevents units from retreating normally at the player's request due to enforced rally attempts.
c. AutoRally OFF forces the player to review his force each turn, making all desired Rally checks, before ending the turn.

[vahauser]

FlashFyre,

I just ran a test using AutoRally OFF. Using the Editor I placed a platoon of Soviets in a forest. I deployed a platoon of German 50mm light mortars 5 hexes away from the Soviets. I used the German three light mortars to bombard a hex that I knew there was a Soviet squad in. I was using Hotseat Mode so that I could control (and watch) both sides during the test. Then I watched what happened.

Turn 1: Sure enough, the mortars put 83 suppression on the targeted Soviet squad. At the start of the Soviet turn, that unit was ‘Routed’. No rally attempts were manually performed. At the end of the Soviet turn 1, it retreated 1 hex into a friendly occupied hex.
Turn 2: German simply ended turn. Start of Soviet turn 2, the routed unit no longer had 83 suppression. It only had 26 suppression now, but it was still considered ‘Routed’. No rally attempts were manually performed. At the end of the Soviet turn 2, it retreated 3 hexes away into some clear terrain.
Turn 3: German simply ended turn. Start of Soviet turn 3, the fleeing Soviet squad now only had 14 suppression and is considered ‘Retreating’. No rally attempts were manually performed. At the end of the Soviet turn 3, it retreated 3 more hexes away.
Turn 4: German simply ended turn. Start of Soviet turn 4, the affected Soviet squad is now ‘Ready’ with a suppression of 1 and moves 4 hexes back towards the rest of its platoon. No rally attempts were manually performed.

AutoRally OFF was in effect throughout this little test. No rally attempts were manually performed at any time during this test. What the test revealed is that even if a unit makes no rally attempts, and even if AutoRally OFF is selected, a unit that has high suppression will have that suppression reduced to ‘Ready’ status after a few turns provided that it suffers no further enemy attacks and it remains out of the LOS of any enemy units.

However, I agree with your statement that AutoRally OFF is usually (but not always) a disadvantage for the human player. If nothing else, just the tedium of going through manually and checking all your units will require greater focus and attention. In turn, this will create more tension and frustration on the player, especially when he occasionally misses a unit or two that he meant to rally. So, yes, AutoRally OFF usually makes the game more difficult for the human player.

The question then becomes: how big a disadvantage is using AutoRally OFF?

I go down the existing list and ask myself the question, “which would give me the greater advantage, X or Y?”

For instance, would playing the US Army give me a greater advantage than AutoRally ON? Yes
Would playing the Germans or Soviets or British give me a greater advantage than AutoRally ON? Yes
Would playing with C&C OFF give me a greater advantage than AutoRally ON? Probably.
So now I know where to rank playing with AutoRally ON. It is probably a 1 or a 2 on a 1-to-10 scale (depending on how many units you have to deal with in your campaign). A small core would be less of a problem with AutoRally OFF.

Here is a revised list:

Choosing to play a WW2 Long Campaign (10+, the most overwhelming advantage a player can rig for himself)
Choosing to employ mines and barbed wire and dragons teeth (10)
Choosing to play a Generated Campaign (9, almost as overwhelming as a WW2 Long Campaign)
Choosing the US Army or USMC (5, American artillery)
Choosing to employ airstrikes (4 or 5 depending on nation and year)
Choosing the Germans or Soviets or British (3 or 4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ on-board artillery larger than 82mm mortars (2-4, depending on size of artillery)
Choosing to employ commando special operations (2-4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ airborne operations (2-4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ Rarity OFF (1-4, depending on the kind of campaign being played)
Choosing to play with C&C OFF (2)
Choosing to play with AutoRally ON (1 or 2, depending on the size of your core)
Choosing to use reinforcements during play (1 or 2, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to play with Op-Fire Confirm ON (1)
Choosing Reduced Ammo ON (1, only if playing a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign)
Choosing Reduced Squads ON (1, only if playing a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign)

[Nikademus]

Good point on Auto Rally FlashF. Think i'll play around with it off when i get a chance. Too much pinning in the game as is.

[FlashfyreSP]

Sorry, but I totally disagree with your "ranking" system. But then, that is YOUR ranking, and you are by no means the officially-recognized "expert" on SPWAW.

Of course a unit with Suppression that isn't rallied and doesn't take more fire will lose Suppression each turn, until it returns to Ready status with no Suppression; that's stated right there in the manual on pg.68! I made no mention of that aspect, because I "assumed" that even the most mediocre player understands that. My point was that, with AutoRally ON, the player consciously gives up some control of his forces to the game's operational routines. And because the game never fails to conduct Rally attempts, it is an advantage to the player, and a large one, to have it ON. If AutoRally is turned OFF, the player is forced to review his forces, find those that need rallying, and make those checks himself. Failure to do so will lead to the player's force being less effective during the battle than if all possible rally attempts are made, and that will make the AI's force more effective.

But I don't know why I even bother anymore...you are the only one I know of who spends more time trying to "rig" the game and come up with charts and lists and personal restrictions than actually playing the damn game!

[vahauser]

FlashFyre,
 
I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm not trying to argue with you.  I think you are correct.  AutoRally ON is an advantage for the human player.  For precisely the reasons you stated.
 
As far as the "rankings", that is entirely the point of this thread.  I've compiled a list of rankings as a starting point, nothing more.  You are correct, as of this moment the rankings are not a consensus.  All I have to go on is my own experience right now until input from others can be used to refine the list.
 
And you are also correct.  To me, using AutoRally OFF is not that big a disadvantage.  Here is an example.  Let's say that I am fighting a battle with 200 friendly units (core + support) against 400 enemy units (I'm fighting a delay and the computer is receiving AI Advantage ON and Hard Battle (x2) which significantly increases the number of computer units).  Now, during any given turn, of my 200 units perhaps 40 or 50 of them are directly engaged against the computer.  The rest of them are either in the rear (like artillery and trucks, etc.) or are otherwise not located where that turn's fighting is (say they are in the south but this turn's fighting is mainly in the north or center).  Anyway, the best tool the player has for quickly scanning his units is the 'Roster'.  I've been using the Roster for so many years that to me it is an automatic thing I do every turn.  Even without AutoRally OFF I typically consult my Roster 5 or 6 times every turn.  AutoRally OFF would require me to consult my Roster a few more times per turn than I already do, but since I'm already used to doing that, then it's not really a burden to me. 
 
So, even with a force of 200 units, I'm rarely going to have to Rally more than 25% of them on any given turn.  And since I can very quickly scan (and I'm talking in terms of seconds here since I use the Roster so often that I am quite good at scanning it) my Roster to locate suppressed units, then the overall effect of AutoRally OFF is not that serious a disadvantage to me.  Which is why I rated it on the 'Rig List' the way I did.  Further, many players already do a lot of manual rallying during any given turn.  This means that AutoRally OFF is more of an end-of-turn adminstrative chore than anything else, something that the Roster is ideal for taking care of chores of that nature.  Of course, I use the Roster heavily and am skilled at using it.  Those players who have to learn how to use the Roster efficiently will suffer more from the effects of AutoRally OFF than I do.  But for those players already skilled in the use of the Roster, then AutoRally OFF is not a great disadvantage.
 
You can conduct a simple poll.  Give players a choice.  Ask them: "Which would you rather play with as a disadvantage, C&C ON or AutoRally OFF."  My guess is that the overwhelming choice will be AutoRally OFF.  And that is because players perceive (correctly in my opinion) that C&C ON is a tougher disadvantage to deal with than AutoRally OFF.
 
You and I don't disagree regarding AutoRally OFF in principle.  The only disagreement is one of degree.  I don't see it as being worse than C&C ON. 

[FlashfyreSP]

I concede the point that the use of AutoRally ON simplifies the player's rallying ability, but I believe you, and many other players, are missing the greater aspect of turning OFF the AutoRally feature: the ability to allow units to retreat as part of a conscious battlefield decision.

Maybe I'm not explaining it fully, or using the right examples, but it is a very important piece of the command process: under normal circumstances, with AutoRally ON, the player is not able to consciously allow a unit to retreat by deciding not to rally it. The game will "catch" that "mistake" and make the rally attempts, and only if the computer fails will the unit actually retreat.

I'm sure many players have experienced a unit that begins their turn in Retreat or Rout status, and they must decide whether to manually attempt to rally the unit so they can move it out of harm's way, or leave it alone and hope it fails the AutoRally ad then retreats. With AutoRally OFF, players can avoid the dilemma of "to rally or not to rally" and know that the unit WILL retreat at the end of the turn.

Conversely, and why I consider the use of AutoRally to be a big advantage, if the player fails to make all the rally attempts he wants to, the game won't "catch" them. So any unit left un-rallied will retain its status going into the enemy turn, and may come out worse than if the rallies have been made. The end result is that players who are not as diligent in their Rallying as the computer is will suffer worse game results. But AutoRally ON prevents all this, and absolves the player of any "failure to rally" actions. And THAT is what makes it a large advantage to use AutoRally in the ON position.

[vahauser]

FlashFyre,
 
I agree with you and I understand what you are trying to say.  AutoRally OFF requires players to be responsible for all their rally actions, and players must make choices that they would not have to make with AutoRally ON.
 
Further, using AutoRally OFF requires players to be much more conscientious regarding the suppression status of all their units.  Failure to pay attention to all their units could cause unpleasant consequences.  This added level of stress makes playing with AutoRally OFF more difficult.
 
On the other hand, as you have pointed out, AutoRally OFF can actually prove to be an advantage to the player under certain circumstances where the player wants a fleeing unit to actually flee.  So, in these cases, AutoRally OFF actually gives the player more choices than he would have using AutoRally ON.
 
However, the disadvantages of using AutoRally OFF outweigh the advantages.  So, playing with AutoRally OFF is more difficult than playing with AutoRally ON.  Agreed.
 
Players who play small campaigns with a small core will find AutoRally OFF to be less of a disadvantage than players who play large campaigns.
 
Players skilled in the use of the Roster will find AutoRally OFF to be less of a disadvantage than players who are unskilled in the use of the Roster.
 
Overall, to me personally (given my play style and skill with the Roster), I rank AutoRally OFF as less of a disadvantage than C&C ON.
 
Bottom Line:  I plan to use AutoRally OFF in my future campaigns.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Maybe I'm not explaining it fully, or using the right examples, but it is a very important piece of the command process: under normal circumstances, with AutoRally ON, the player is not able to consciously allow a unit to retreat by deciding not to rally it

You are, and I agree. As i mentioned before, I think the AR helps exaserbate the pin-happy aspect of Infantry component of this game leading to excessive bloodiness. (it helps to have inf toughness set to 250%) In this area I prefer how SP:WWII handles it. (INF units will auto retreat much more often away from intense and/or punishing fire in that game)

[JEB Davis]

Vahauser,

I haven't visited here since the now "infamous" knife incident, so I just saw your reply and the thread was locked so I will reply here. The knife was in my OWN head, not yours. The feelings that prompted the knife smiley were something along the lines of "oh no, another flame war is brewing... I'll inject a bit of comedy here," and I discovered the smiley (I have dialup, so I rarely click the "more smileys" button due to how long it takes to load). So, to repeat, it was not your head but mine that the knife was sticking out of. My apology sir.

You may recall that in the past either here or at the Depot, I have not been "against" you and I do read your posts with an open mind. Obviously, you have the right to present your opinions just like everyone else here. Although generally, I tend to have a different opinion than you on many of your posts, some of your ideas have been akin to my own. Also, I fully realize that you have many more years of experience with SP:WaW than I do, and this causes me to listen because I enjoy gathering wisdom from those who know more than myself.

?? . . . . I just tend to have a strange sense of humor, that's all. (Sorry if this is considered a hijack, please return to your regularly scheduled program).