Ground Attack missions "losing" their targets

[dtravel]

Rtrapasso has already done what I needed.  He confirmed that it was a bug and put it on the list.  That was it.
 
In the future, I would like bug reports to not be dismissed because you (who as I understand it aren't even an employee of Matrix, just a volunteer) don't think its important or your personal style of play never encounters it.  I've worked tech support.  You don't stay in business by blowing off customers' complaints like that.  I wasn't expecting it to suddenly become the top priority.  All I was expecting (or perhaps I should say "hoped for") was for it to be logged to be worked on eventually.  Now that Rtrapasso has done that, its done with for now as far as I'm concerned.

[Yamato hugger]

Dont think I dismissed it. I gave MY opinion on the subject. My opinion counts just as much as yours, no? I am a customer of Maxtrix as well no? And in this customers opinion, this "bug" (and I will grant you, it shouldnt work this way) certainly isnt something that I (as a customer) would want them wasting time even LOOKING at while there are many MANY more severe problems that could be fixed.

Thank you

(steps off soapbox)

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: DD696

Please don't thank me....I didn't find this problem. However, as one who wrote his first computer program in 1965 and was a senior systems analyst, I do feel that I can state that this is a bug. Just one more bug in a program (this game) that was released with too many of them which are still being found three years (short a few days) after release and which will never be resolved to the paying customers satisfaction. Happens way too often nowadays. I know you guys are trying to iron out some of them and it is appreciated, but I don't think that you can dictate that a bug is not a bug and only a "minor annoyance". If you are going to be "mo' better help" that you need to take the paying customers a bit more seriously and not sluff off their efforts to also improve this game.

I started programming some time after you, in the early 1980s, though I started very old school (machine language) and eventually got into Windows programming. I'm also an Electronic Engineer by training, so I've spent years down on the hardware level.

Old operating systems were fairly simple beasts and the programmer had pretty much complete control over the whole system. The pre-GUI OSs like Unix, DOS, etc. took some direct control away, but you still had a lot of direct control. GUIs abstract the system more and you spend a lot of time as a programmer making system calls to do what you want. That introduces lots of vectors for errors.

Program size also opens you up to bugs too. The bigger the program, the more chances there are of bugs creeping in. Management pressures such as time to market usually force programmers to do a less than optimal job.

Last year I started a company selling a software product I wrote. We had one of the dullest beta tests in software history. We had quite a few users pounding away on it and only had one minor bug that was issolated to Windows 98, that I already knew about. I put a lot of extra time into ensuring there were no bugs. I fixed all known bugs before going to beta test. We ended up with a rock solid product that is, in our opinion, better than any other on the market in our niche. However, we essentially missed our market window. When we started this project, the market was poorly served, but many others moved in while we were developing. Part of the delays were due to other factors than just my perfectionism with the software development. Since I needed to make another living while developing this product, I had stretches of time when I couldn't get time to work on it.

There is the old engineer's maxim: Good - Fast - Cheap: Pick Two.

Comparing WitP to other games of the same size and complexity, it has a typical number of bugs. The big difference between this game and other games is that Matrix continues to support it with people actually doing bug fixes three years after it's initial release.

Go pick up some of the classic games like Great Naval Battles. Even the last released version of that game has many serious quirks.

The game market is very different from the commercial software market. Different forces drive it. Technically, the challenges are similar, but the products follow different market rules. Matrix is unusual in their support of WitP. Go research other games released three years ago. Most have either only been updated with another game based on the same engine was released, or they are now available for $10 in a bin at Office Depot and the company that developed it has either gone out of business or is off on other projects and can't be bothered with fossil-ware from way back in 2004.

Yes WitP has bugs and I've kevetched about my share of irritating bugs/features that got under my skin. As a consumer, the pace of bug fixes is agaonizingly slow, and I'd love to see my pet bug get fixed. However, as a programmer who has done everything from embedded programming on custom circuits, to working with primitive operatins systems, to programming Windows, I realize that these things take a while and I appreciate that Matrix is continuing to support this game.

Bill

[DD696]

If I went and picked up Great Naval Battles, then I would have two copies of the full series so I think I will not do this. I am quite familiar with their problems.

The only point I have been trying to make in this thread is this: This thread lies within the subforum entititled "War in the Pacific Support". Customers are requested to post bug reports here. A customer did and was sluffed off. I felt that the response he received was totally inappropriate. Then I am told that there are no bugs, only annoyances - minor and major. Been around too long to accept that type of BS. Bugs exist in this program and new ones will be found. I am thankful for any improvements made to this game and have stated so in numerous past posts, including the one quoted.

If the official policy now is not to accept or acknowledge that new bugs will still be found, and that there are only old "annoyances" (must be some kind of "newspeak" or yuppie-yap) then perhaps the support subforum should be closed and the more appropriate place for new "annoyances", or bugs as they have been more appropiately known throughout the history of data processing, might be within the Wish List.

Also note that neither I nor the one who reported this bug (I will tell it as it is) made any request to getting this fixed immediately or moved up to the top of the bug (I did it again) list. It was simply a bug (yes, I am still saying bug) report to be added to the list. We are then both told separately by Yamato hugger to decide the priority of the bugs (once again) to be fixed. This I took to be simply more BS being spouted. If it is not, then please provide me with the full bug (I never learn, do I?) list as well as the full documentation for them in hardcopy format and I would be honored to set the priority. But the only one who would be happy with the priority that I set would be me, right? But then again, you did make me the offer in good faith, did you not?

So to summarize, are we still allowed to report bugs (shame on me) and be able to do so without fear of being treated as a plague upon the WITP society?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: DD696

We are then both told separately by Yamato hugger to decide the priority of the bugs (once again) to be fixed.

Excuse me?

I think in the realm of bugs, this is a minor annoyance. Plenty of more important things to spend time debugging IMHO.

IMHO means In MY HUMBLE OPINION. Think you need to rethink this post. Where do you get off accusing ME of deciding priorities of things to get fixed? Where do EITHER of you get off deciding that I dont deserve the courtesy of having an opinion?

ORIGINAL: DD696

So to summarize, are we still allowed to report bugs (shame on me) and be able to do so without fear of being treated as a plague upon the WITP society?

You can report all the bugs you want, Im sure the Matrix folks appreciate it. If you live in fear of my opinion, then you have a lot of fear in front of you. I give my opinion. When Im wrong, I admit it. When I dont feel I am I wont. I said I would rather if Matrix spent their precious few hours of bug chasing on more important matters, whats wrong with that? Again, I am not entitled to an opinion?

If the official policy now

Since when did IMHO become "official policy"?

Wake up and smell what youre shoveling.

Edit: US Army 1975 to 1986.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: DD696

...

So to summarize, are we still allowed to report bugs (shame on me) and be able to do so without fear of being treated as a plague upon the WITP society?

Yes, of course we are still allowed to report "bugs" or "issues" (not all issues are bugs - though all bugs are probably issues). Can't really respond to fears and plagues, I guess some fear of the plague is healthy! [;)] if history is any guide, the plague will return one day!

While it would be nice if our volunteer team could offer the same type of support that paid groups do, I would like to see all of us at least showing a level of common respect. But as you imply, this means we should be able to state our opinions without being personally demeaned and I certainly agree with that. And I mean all of us, me, you, all of us. My watch phrase here is "issues not people" .. so we should feel free to beat up on the issues without thinking that we will be beat up on as "people" in return. "Issues - not People" seems simple enough to me.

That being said, I think this forum is now a much better behaved group than we were two years ago, I guess we're mellowing with age, a bit! [:D]

[Yamato hugger]

Sorry. Tired and that struck a nerve. Been up all night tracking leaking planes/pilots. I think I have it nailed finally to where its repeatable. Going to get some sleep and run 1 more test before I turn it over to Rob.