Anyone care to speculate on what happened here?

[herwin]

Ground combat at Magwe

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 23301 troops, 111 guns, 61 vehicles, Assault Value = 610

Defending force 5352 troops, 45 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 102

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0

Japanese max assault: 567 - adjusted assault: 562

Allied max defense: 97 - adjusted defense: 8

Japanese assault odds: 70 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Magwe base !!!

The defending infantry brigade was:
1. dug in
2. rested
3. at strength
4. within HQ range
5. well-supplied
6. experienced.
7. well-led.
8. expecting the attack

The attack was off the march.

Churchill is asking WTFO!? What should I tell him?

[rtrapasso]

For SOME reason, the AV of the Brits was adjusted downward rather drastically...

how disrupted and fatigued were the Brits??? How many supplies? How many forts? How much prep for the location??

It could be that the IJA arty was extremely effective (great die roll) and managed to disrupt the defenders, i guess... IJA divisions are rather variable in the arty, and some have rather impressive guns (while others have rather poor ones.)

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

For SOME reason, the AV of the Brits was adjusted downward rather drastically...

how disrupted and fatigued were the Brits???

About 30% in a malaria zone base.

How many supplies?

2300

How many forts?

1 or 2-level

How much prep for the location??

The baseforce 100%. The infantry brigade was prepared for Mandalay. It had been in Magwe for a month.

It could be that the IJA arty was extremely effective (great die roll) and managed to disrupt the defenders, i guess... IJA divisions are rather variable in the arty, and some have rather impressive guns (while others have rather poor ones.)

BTW, the forces are retreating in good order to Mandalay.

[rtrapasso]

i am guessing that the IJA got lucky on a die roll...

One other possibility is the leader - they could look good on the surface but have a really bad land combat rating... Good leaders can help, and i'm guessing bad leaders can hurt, so you might check the two leaders "land" ability.

i am not sure of what happens if you have a bad army commander "helping" a unit defend. Was there a corp/army leader "assisting" your troops?

[Bliztk]

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

i'd never known that!! [X(]

[stldiver]

Yep, its true, better to change a prepped unit back to 0 prep then let it be prepped for another target.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

i'd never known that!! [X(]

Neither have I [:(]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: aztez

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

i'd never known that!! [X(]

Neither have I [:(]

Just checked with Nik - he HAS heard of it, but not sure it is "hard and fast" every time.

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

i'd never known that!! [X(]

It seems to me the rule is that 100% prep will double your AV in the targeted base, so rather than being halved everywhere it will normal everywhere, and doubled on one hex.

As for the above result, engineers reduced fort to 0 before odd calculations, so fort wasn't relevant. The dramatic drop of AV for the Allied (97 at the start of the battle, 8 for odd calculation) was probably due to some bad die rolls for AV adjustement, but also by Japanese fire disabling a good part of the defenders.

At this stage of the war, Japanese units should also have better morale, exp and leadership, so no wonder the city fell.

As for your points, I find strange that a "at strength" Bde and a BF gather only 100 AV. And I won't call a base with fort 1 a "dug-in" location.
Points 2, 4, 5, 6, 7: you probably do all that was possible to do here, but it is fairly possible that Japanese troops had the same advantages, or even more (better exp for example)
The point 8, "excepting the attack", is not totally true. In WITP terms if your Bde was "expecting the attack", it should have preparred for Magwe.

The end result is that you were outnumbered 6 to 1 in combat troops, with small forts, and the potential danger that enemy troops were preparing for Magwe. So depending of which terrain Magwe is, a 3 to 1 ratio should be the minimum the Jap will have reached, and will have been enough to take the city.

Actually there is nothing Churchill can curse about

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

i'd never known that!! [X(]

It seems to me the rule is that 100% prep will double your AV in the targeted base, so rather than being halved everywhere it will normal everywhere, and doubled on one hex.

As for the above result, engineers reduced fort to 0 before odd calculations, so fort wasn't relevant. The dramatic drop of AV for the Allied (97 at the start of the battle, 8 for odd calculation) was probably due to some bad die rolls for AV adjustement, but also by Japanese fire disabling a good part of the defenders.

At this stage of the war, Japanese units should also have better morale, exp and leadership, so no wonder the city fell.

As for your points, I find strange that a "at strength" Bde and a BF gather only 100 AV. And I won't call a base with fort 1 a "dug-in" location.
Points 2, 4, 5, 6, 7: you probably do all that was possible to do here, but it is fairly possible that Japanese troops had the same advantages, or even more (better exp for example)
The point 8, "excepting the attack", is not totally true. In WITP terms if your Bde was "expecting the attack", it should have preparred for Magwe.

The end result is that you were outnumbered 6 to 1 in combat troops, with small forts, and the potential danger that enemy troops were preparing for Magwe. So depending of which terrain Magwe is, a 3 to 1 ratio should be the minimum the Jap will have reached, and will have been enough to take the city.

Actually there is nothing Churchill can curse about

It wouldn't stop him, though.

The local army commander (Irwin) is a real loser.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Land Forces fully prepped to an objetive that combat in other hex have their AV halved

i'd never known that!! [X(]

It seems to me the rule is that 100% prep will double your AV in the targeted base, so rather than being halved everywhere it will normal everywhere, and doubled on one hex.

As for the above result, engineers reduced fort to 0 before odd calculations, so fort wasn't relevant. The dramatic drop of AV for the Allied (97 at the start of the battle, 8 for odd calculation) was probably due to some bad die rolls for AV adjustement, but also by Japanese fire disabling a good part of the defenders.

At this stage of the war, Japanese units should also have better morale, exp and leadership, so no wonder the city fell.

As for your points, I find strange that a "at strength" Bde and a BF gather only 100 AV. And I won't call a base with fort 1 a "dug-in" location.
Points 2, 4, 5, 6, 7: you probably do all that was possible to do here, but it is fairly possible that Japanese troops had the same advantages, or even more (better exp for example)
The point 8, "excepting the attack", is not totally true. In WITP terms if your Bde was "expecting the attack", it should have preparred for Magwe.

The end result is that you were outnumbered 6 to 1 in combat troops, with small forts, and the potential danger that enemy troops were preparing for Magwe. So depending of which terrain Magwe is, a 3 to 1 ratio should be the minimum the Jap will have reached, and will have been enough to take the city.

Actually there is nothing Churchill can curse about

The only effect on AV of prepped units is a potential increase. However, the number of firing devices in fire combat can be halved if the prepped hex is different from the hex of current unit location. But note the use of the words "potential" and "can be" - we often seem to forget that Gary wraps all of the game formulae up in mutliple die rolls, so making statements like "this always happens" or "that always happens" are ignoring the copious use of die rolls in the game. So re-stated, prep points can cause in increase in AV if the conditions are met; and prep points for a different hex can cause a firepower reduction (but not an AV reduction) if the conditions are met.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

However, the number of firing devices in fire combat can be halved if the prepped hex is different from the hex of current unit location. But note the use of the words "potential" and "can be" -

pretty much what i told rtrapasso. Good to know my memory hasn't completely faded. [:D]

[qgaliana]

Wow - learn something new everyday. I just (this morning) had a full strength, fully supplied Indian division get bloodied by 2 base forces with moderate forts. Adjusted AV was 80 of a 600 max. And yes I was prepped for a different base ( I figured I'd walk through the first one [:(]). I thought I'd gotten the mother and father of all bad die rolls.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso



i'd never known that!! [X(]

It seems to me the rule is that 100% prep will double your AV in the targeted base, so rather than being halved everywhere it will normal everywhere, and doubled on one hex.

As for the above result, engineers reduced fort to 0 before odd calculations, so fort wasn't relevant. The dramatic drop of AV for the Allied (97 at the start of the battle, 8 for odd calculation) was probably due to some bad die rolls for AV adjustement, but also by Japanese fire disabling a good part of the defenders.

At this stage of the war, Japanese units should also have better morale, exp and leadership, so no wonder the city fell.

As for your points, I find strange that a "at strength" Bde and a BF gather only 100 AV. And I won't call a base with fort 1 a "dug-in" location.
Points 2, 4, 5, 6, 7: you probably do all that was possible to do here, but it is fairly possible that Japanese troops had the same advantages, or even more (better exp for example)
The point 8, "excepting the attack", is not totally true. In WITP terms if your Bde was "expecting the attack", it should have preparred for Magwe.

The end result is that you were outnumbered 6 to 1 in combat troops, with small forts, and the potential danger that enemy troops were preparing for Magwe. So depending of which terrain Magwe is, a 3 to 1 ratio should be the minimum the Jap will have reached, and will have been enough to take the city.

Actually there is nothing Churchill can curse about

The only effect on AV of prepped units is a potential increase. However, the number of firing devices in fire combat can be halved if the prepped hex is different from the hex of current unit location. But note the use of the words "potential" and "can be" - we often seem to forget that Gary wraps all of the game formulae up in mutliple die rolls, so making statements like "this always happens" or "that always happens" are ignoring the copious use of die rolls in the game. So re-stated, prep points can cause in increase in AV if the conditions are met; and prep points for a different hex can cause a firepower reduction (but not an AV reduction) if the conditions are met.

If you go too far in that direction, you can get a vanishingly small combat power. A brigade should be able to hold a position for couple of days before collapsing even at 6-1.

[Nikademus]

sometimes it goes the other way. I've had similar situations in the same place where Japanese AV was reduced all the way to 0 giving a 0-1 modified odds despite numerical and qualitive advantages.

[String]

I wasn't much surprised at the fact that i captured the base at first try, although i was prepared for the fact that it might not happen.

I was surprised tho at the horrible modification that the allied assault value got.

I guess the allied commander had a very bad day, the allied officers had a very bad day and in general the troops themselves preformed very badly at that given battle. The british doing almost everything wrong and the japanese doing almost everything right seems to be the case here. Also i'm quite sure the japanese armor (such as it was) played a role.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

sometimes it goes the other way. I've had similar situations in the same place where Japanese AV was reduced all the way to 0 giving a 0-1 modified odds despite numerical and qualitive advantages.

The game makes a lot of well-defined combat situations where in reality the only suspense is how long the inevitable will take into crap shoots.

[kaleun]

[X(][X(][X(][X(] This explains a lot in my game with Halsey!
 
My revenge will be terrible!!! (Maniacal laughter follows)
 
BTW Halsey: Where is my turn?

[herwin]

OK, we've established that whoever designed the game doesn't understand ground operations, particularly issues revolving around tempo. Here's the second question: in preparation for the Japanese attack, I reinforced the air operating out of the base to eight squadrons with fresh fighter and bomber units. None of them flew, even to intercept Japanese air strikes. What I did may sound stupid to the gamers out there, but having spent six years as the chief engineer for the USMC air and ground command and control system for operations at this scale, I knew that the most effective way of ensuring continuous and effective direct air support to a unit under attack was to have aircraft in the same hex (at that scale). Not in a neighboring hex or further away, but co-located with the units being supported. Please don't tell me that what I saw here is how the game works, because that would indicate that the game designers not only lacked a realistic understanding of ground operations, they also lack a similar understanding of air operations.

Please note that air operations out of bases co-located (in WiTP terms) with the ground forces being supported were a common occurrence during WWII. The Japanese didn't withdraw from the positions around the USMC perimeter on Guadalcanal for at least three months, and air operations from Henderson Field were almost continuous during that period.

Of course, the fact that the entirety of coastal hexes are assumed to be within gun range of naval bombardment suggests that the game designers lack a realistic understanding of naval operations. Strike three...