Ridicolous scenario design (for MP at least)

[Oleg Mastruko]

More I play more I realise the laughable scenario design that went into this game. Apparently only Chris of all testers ever tried some serious multiplayer, because that's - in MP - when ridicolous stuff becomes apparent.

Some examples:

- Eastern Solomons map is very confined to the south - USN has nowehere to retreat (do I have to say they would have solid opportunity to retreat to Australia and Noumea IRL?)

- Santa Cruz - well, same map, same thing. I've had MP opponents "corner" my forces into what is in reality just an open ocean!

- Wake Island - I just had a massive LOL. Whoever designed this needs to have his head examined. Me IJN, opponent USN. I sunk all 3 his CVs + tons of other ships. However, his kamikaze CVs badly mauled my invasion force before dying for the emper.... pardon, Roosevelt. For this doctrinally insane, tactically crazy, and strategically catastophic result he was awarded - Decisive USN Vicotry. I scored a decisive defeat, because I lost couple transports carrying, perhaps, a Naval INF batallion or something? He did not even sunk them all, so make that half an INF batallion. He lost 3 CVs + thousands of sailors and pilots - need I explain that in real life such result would be debacle for the US, and IJN would take Wake at their leasure with no opposition form USN in sight in whichever way they please?

You people need to playtest your stuff vs real living opponents. AI just does not cut it. Otherwise you have ridicolous stuff happening in MP, and MP scene will be dying very soon. I started with what I thought are 6 playable MP scenarios, and I'm down ro, what? 2, already?

[:-]

[AVisme]

The absolutes are key here, in MP anyway. In the above the American Fleets stayed separated, the first strike on the northern group came in unsighted [8D] < not cool, blind!) and ent or sara (i forget)was quickly sunk.

My center task force and the southern force only had the two invasion fleets sighted and launched, sinking enough to lock the win. I attempted to sail south with the center fleet but was still caught and sunk. The sara was left alone due south of WAKE (edit, it really is hard to get away as the yanks), lauched once more sank a few more invasion ships. Then sunk attempting to flee.

Not really kamikazee, but certainly open for divide and conquor...but I've grouped em just to see all die together before...

[Oleg Mastruko]

I am not questioning your strategy, which is apparently valid given the&nbsp;absurd scenario design here. Apparently I should have read the scenario&nbsp;victory requirements&nbsp;before (which I didn't) and have a good hearty laugh before we ever played, and refuse to play such travesty at all.
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I must admit I rarely read wargame&nbsp;scen briefings in full, because I assume some knowledge of history and common sense should be enough to tell me what to do. A guy once said: TRUE wargamer worth his history books&nbsp;does not need victory points, one glance on the game map and he *knows* who won.
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No one with half a brain would award decisive victory to the side losing 3 CVs vs none of the enemy,&nbsp;in a game called "Carriers at War". (Not to mention valuable pilots and aircraft, and cruisers you lost + you lost your own transport force) It was an utter debacle for the USN for everyone except scenario designer.

[AVisme]

I'd have to agree with the loss of the three CV's here. The victory screen just didn't seem right when it popped up at the end...

[Oleg Mastruko]

I don't care for one lost game - which I would never admit anyway, as I consider this result to be my Uber-Decisive Overwhelming Victory, no matter what you, Gregor_SSG, George W. Bush or Pope Benedict the Billionth have to say [8D]

What irritates me to no end is that developers (not just SSG but practically all developers) ignore wargamers who play vs other humans. Once you start playing and/or testing games vs other people terrible mistakes become apparent - either technical (unplayable or buggy MP as in so many games), absurd and downright ridicolous scenario design, never-tested setups etc etc etc. Sadly, this game is no better than the rest, even though I had hopes...... [:(] That's three scenarios already tagged as "unplayable in current state" by me, Pearl Harbor is well, it's not a REAL scenario, so we are left with grand total of TWO scenarios that may be usable for MP (as in - didn't find any logic-breakers there yet).

And hey, we MP fanatics usually never complain about the damn AI - that Nemesis of all developers everywhere....

[AVisme]

Some 'what ifs' scenarios would be the easiest solution to more variety/balance.

If there's anybody thinking of creating one for MP, I'd suggest 2 distinct objective locations to keep players guessing at the start. If I had half a clue I'd attempt one myself, but that could be dangerous.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You people need to playtest your stuff

Can I quote you on that?

PoE

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: AVisme
Some 'what ifs' scenarios would be the easiest solution to more variety/balance.

If there's anybody thinking of creating one for MP, I'd suggest 2 distinct objective locations to keep players guessing at the start. If I had half a clue I'd attempt one myself, but that could be dangerous.

Okay, you guys aren't getting the whole scenario thang.

SSG has superimposed a game over an historical situation. The result is sort of a mess because both sides know what's out there. If you round up the usual suspects that conventional wisdom seems willing to attribute the outcomes to, Allied intel, luck, etc., you're pretty much screwed, because of the calculus of the battles themselves, the central and immutable characteristic being that the IJN enjoys an overwhelming edge by virtue of the superior range of its aircraft. It can sock the living hell out of an Allied TG and the assailed can't effectively respond. In MP, no amount of smart-alec maneuver will alter this reality to a significant degree.

IMO, however, there is a flaw to the SSG approach to the modeling of these actions. It lies in the developer's stern-willed insistence that the USN and IJN fought these battles the same way. The fact of the matter is, though, that this was not the case. And at every point in the game, I keep thinking to myself, "if only these doctrinal differences would emerge, we'd see different outcomes and MP would be set free of the straight-jacket imposed upon it by the terrain and situation, the scenario." As is, the game is reduced to a series of x's and o's, weapons systems and crew, and no heed is paid to how they went about doing their jobs.

I could reel off a bunch of "rules" that'd attempt to impose some doctrinal differences upon the forces at hand, but I've done so in other threads, hereabouts, and I'm semi-convinced that the management isn't interested.

So it goes,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Charles Lamb]

I have to say that I got a similar impression to Oleg and AVisme from multiplayer games with them.

The scenarios are setup and balanced for single player, that much is obviouse.

In most of the scenarios discussed, IJN has many more carriers and longer range (historic) and the US does not have the advantage of surprise.

The IJN perhaps should HAVE to launch air strikes against land targets in some scenarios as a requirement of Victory, this is a suggestion , there may be other better ways of rebalancing for multiplayer but currently the IJN 'hold all the aces'.

Both sides should be able to withdraw from the map edge in all scenarios definitely.

Probably there should be seperate multi player versions of many scenarios.

In such a new release I hope the developers may consider doing this ?

[Dave Ferguson]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
.....What irritates me to no end is that developers (not just SSG but practically all developers) ignore wargamers who play vs other humans. .....

I don't have this game but it is on my winter 'to play' list so I thought I could not agree more with the above statement. You wonder if game developers would rather forget about having human v human play, after all only a small percentage of gamers play v human, they have the most fun but the ignorant majority don't know this. My question is does CAW have the scenario and map design tools so users can generate their own scenarios, or do we have another computer wargame which is not really a wargame you can play WITH a computer?

Dave

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

You wonder if game developers would rather forget about having human v human play, after all only a small percentage of gamers play v human, they have the most fun but the ignorant majority don't know this.

Very insightful, Dave. Decades ago, I came across some survey results suggesting that the average wargamer spent more time playing solo than against an opponent. I took that to mean that folks were "practicing" or "planning moves" in preparation for play against a human. I think that I was probably wrong in that regard.

For whatever reason, a lot of players had simply eschewed the human option and begun rolling the dice for both sides. No doubt, computer games that offered an AI was a God-send of sorts to these individuals. And while they couldn't roll dice for both sides, at least they could use the save-game function to replay the turn until they got the result that they were looking for.

Anyway, you're right. I think that many developers approach MP as an afterthought. But, it's also true that many publishers simply demand that it be included. It's a "must-have," so it goes in, regardless of it's playability and/or balance. I definitely lean toward human opponents, btw. But, I also like to have a good game to share with my opponent, one with solid "rules" and a modicum of play-balance, if you will, and no bugs allowed.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[AVisme]

in defense here, I just fooled around with the editor and victory conditions and this is really easy to fix. teach a man to fish they say.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: AVisme


in defense here, I just fooled around with the editor and victory conditions and this is really easy to fix. teach a man to fish they say.

Tell us more. [:)]

PoE

[AVisme]

lots of combinations possible, easily allow the Japanese to withdraw with dignity and or punish the invasion fleet more.

[AVisme]

Change the points for sinking certain ships can easily be done aswell

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

You people need to playtest your stuff

Can I quote you on that?

Absolutely, mate, but please quote the FULL sentence:

You people need to playtest your stuff vs real living opponents.

[AVisme]

an interesting twist can be added!

I lowered the sighting range by 100nm for each side's 3+ groups [X(] and reduced jap torps to 'good'



being able to mod turn around times would be great (need to add to wishlist maybe)

[AVisme]

and after editing it didn't crash [&:][&:] idiot proof maybe [;)]

[sullafelix]

One reason I never went to MP and I 've read&nbsp;alot of other peoples comments on why the stopped. Was the way that in most MP you or your opponent can twist the rules. Instead of following reality the wargame is changed into a chess game and how the rules can be bent to gain victory points. I've read about last turn drives to earn&nbsp;victory points with&nbsp;a supply wagon etc.
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CAW and all other wargames put you into the seat of the commander, at whatever level the designer wanted. I haven't had time to play with the editor but from the old CAWs you could do Anything you wanted. Different plane types for what if's, adjust AA on ships, adjust the experience of aircrews.&nbsp;
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Take the Phillipine sea for example. If you play it stock 99 times out of 100 as the Japanese you are doomed. But, that was the historic situation. If you MP people will be a little patient there will be tons of new historical and what if scenarios. The amount that was released in Run5 was huge and then there were the ones made by others.
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Back to the reality question. I do not want to play a " historic" game where Frederick does not follow linear tactics or the Japanese can produce an A bomb in 1938. I do want to have the ability to see what would happen in the pacific with Japan training more pilots and the possibility of Shindens. I have the ability when playing solo to make sure that idiotic situations don't start happening. The more complex a wargame is ie. supply and command radius the more historic will be the outcome. If you want to in a more complex game to land paratroopers in Paris and land at Calais you are welcomed to it.But you will also pay a stiff price for such actions. A beer and pretzels game will let you do those things. CAW is not that kind of game. In fact withe efforts like CAW I dislike the term game and prefer simulation.
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[82nd Airborne]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I don't care for one lost game - which I would never admit anyway, as I consider this result to be my Uber-Decisive Overwhelming Victory, no matter what you, Gregor_SSG, George W. Bush or Pope Benedict the Billionth have to say [8D]

heh, I played Coral Sea last night, sunk all 3 IJN carriers, plus several CA's, DDs, transports, only losing the Lex, and a very minor damage on 2 CAs. The IJN did a drop on Tulagi, and I came away with a draw. Thought for sure that would be a Decisive Victory.