Land based Recon

[JeffroK]

Is there any way of adding units to a LCU which increase the ability to spot/increase detection levels on enemy LCU in same/adjaecent hexes??

i.e. If I have an Armoured car Rgt can this recon type unit detect LCU more efficiently than an Infantry unit??

Has anyone worked on this ?

[el cid again]

We do not know the details - and by "we" I mean no one knows the details - even reading code would not help us much here - as the way the code is done you cannot know when it will be branched around - not for sure - and it is very hard to read at all;

But PROBABLY all that matters is the presence of a land unit;

MAYBE what matters is the presence of lots of squads in a land unit;

MAYBE what matters is the presence of lots of non-support squads in a lang unit.

To that - WITP is complex - MAYBE it matters if there is radar (etc) - re certain kinds of targets - notably airplanes and ships - NOT other land units.

[JeffroK]

Thanks Sid,
 
Its probably hidden in the deep dark depths of the code.
 
My thought was that a Modern Force with lots of mechanized units and armoured cars/light tanks would have some advantage over an Infantry heavy/horse drawn LCU.
 
While probably of little effect on an Atoll like Betio, it could be important on some of the all-land areas such as China, India & Australia.

[m10bob]

In that each hex is supposed to be 50-60 miles, I don't think a real armoured recon unit would stray that far from its' originating base,especially not with an enemy component "next door".

Some months ago I had requested the implementation of Allied observation planes, and it was pointed out to me that the game itself already tried to replicate them by the "ZOC" type observation of adjacent hexes.

If the Lysander was not a multi-role plane, I suspect it would have been scrapped months ago.

[el cid again]

It is quite true that the Lysander is NOT present as an observation plane in the sense of its primary mission - but as the naval coastal patrol plane it stopgapped into. I tried to get rid of it - and a couple of Dutch types - and failed - because of significant historical naval activity.

We are unable to get to the detail level that would make this whole thread germane. IF we could, you would see us putting Japanese recon units - they loved to ride Harly Davidson motorcycles (which they called "Harey") - and a peculiar sort of Japanese "jeep" (Kurogane) called the "black model." They also had armored recon - the main job of a "light tank" was recon (it was more or less a tracked armored car). Finally - when not motorized - it was normal to have cavalry recon elements in a larger formation - and as time passed these came to include motorized elements as well as horsed. You might not like to see how well these formations did - if the code could look at them. We were slow to invest in recon - and the Japanese had German mentors on the matter.

I believe the conception of battle used here was semi-abstract. Recon was meant to apply INSIDE the hex, and adding vehicles DOES matter in combat encounters - probably on the theory "you could grab any vehicle at need" - which indeed is true. In that sense - adding vehicles does matter.

[Dili]

For the Hex size only at Operational level recon of adjacent hexes are realistic, more or less at Corps level. Since a comon flaw of most hexe games is that if your units regardless of size enter an hexe detect all enemy activity in that hex you can use Motorised Recon Bn's as an advanced recon 60 miles in front of main body but to be realistic should be a Regiment/Brigade sized unit at least.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Is there any way of adding units to a LCU which increase the ability to spot/increase detection levels on enemy LCU in same/adjaecent hexes??

i.e. If I have an Armoured car Rgt can this recon type unit detect LCU more efficiently than an Infantry unit??

Has anyone worked on this ?

no.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

For the Hex size only at Operational level recon of adjacent hexes are realistic, more or less at Corps level. Since a comon flaw of most hexe games is that if your units regardless of size enter an hexe detect all enemy activity in that hex you can use Motorised Recon Bn's as an advanced recon 60 miles in front of main body but to be realistic should be a Regiment/Brigade sized unit at least.

60 miles in front is way too far if the enemy is present in strength - and indeed even half that is pretty risky to attempt - even without any enemy sighted. Recon is not fuel efficient work - and recon does not usually carry fuel tanks - so attempting to go so far is pretty reckless on log grounds, never mind the chance of running into enemy roadblocks/checkpoints/strongpoints. How far recon is out depends on a host of factors - but 60 miles is not normal - nor even common. Given the nature of the infrastructures in this area in WWII it isn't even feasible. Tactical radios would not work so far - it might take days to move so far - things like that. [For reasons unclear - lack of money - USMC used ex US Army radios in my day - tube type WWII radios. Their ranges were dismal over water, never mind over land.]

[JeffroK]

The reading of the exploits of the German Recce Bns in Russia has misled me, they often operated well in advance (30-40 miles) of the main force.
 
While not as relevant to Island combat, should people get into the more open areas of Australia, China, Mongolia & India they would hope to have some more realistic version of Recon.  For example, Japan takes Darwin, surely a prudent commander would send out light forces towards Mt Isa, Wyndham & Alice Springs to check out the Allied response and to provide early warning of counterattack.
 
But it appears, I can send an Infantry Bn into a hex and get the same recon as I would get from a Corps equivalent force.

[Panther Bait]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The reading of the exploits of the German Recce Bns in Russia has misled me, they often operated well in advance (30-40 miles) of the main force.

AFAIK, the German concept of Recon was different from most, or all, of the other combatants in the war. The Germans generally considered Recon battalions as combat units, and they were encouraged to engage the enemy and hold territory until the main body could reach them. Most other countries typically used recon assets to make contact, report back and keep an eye on if possible, but not to fight unless no option existed (or the enemy forces were very light).

[Dili]

Forward detachments usually units of Regiment,Brigade level were  used in Manchuria 1945 by Soviets with dozens of kilometers in advance of main body.

Thus ended the dramatic march of the 205th Tank Brigade. In less
than twelve hours, the brigade had raced 100 kilometers ahead of the army
main force and had secured important crossings over the Hailar Ho and a
foothold in the city.

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/download/ ... ta_ch7.pdf

  [font=arial]Forward detachments would operate 40-50 kilometers in advance of their parent units, and in the later stages of the war this separation would rise as high as 100 kilometers, as the scope of Red Army operations increased and German resistance began to falter.51 [/font]

http://www.redarmystudies.net/0411030.htm


Of course this depends on enemy defense, reaction time, mobility and also terrain and weather.

[el cid again]

But note that 30 miles or dozens of km is probably still in the same 60 mile square hex. The default normal case - that which we must use - is it is in the same hex. And since we have so many small units - if you want early warning or intel of what is there - send a unit.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The reading of the exploits of the German Recce Bns in Russia has misled me, they often operated well in advance (30-40 miles) of the main force.

AFAIK, the German concept of Recon was different from most, or all, of the other combatants in the war. The Germans generally considered Recon battalions as combat units, and they were encouraged to engage the enemy and hold territory until the main body could reach them. Most other countries typically used recon assets to make contact, report back and keep an eye on if possible, but not to fight unless no option existed (or the enemy forces were very light).

Motorised Aufsklaerungs Abteilungen were essentially mechanised/motorised infantry. If there were Panzers available, they were married up to form extremely effective armored KGs. The standard organisation of a fresh '44 PD was two such armored KGs for mobile ops (one built using the AA and the other using the mech PG Abteilung) and a 3-Abteilung motorised infantry force to hold ground.

[Dili]

And since we have so many small units - if you want early warning or intel of what is there - send a unit.

As you can note 100km separation was achieved and  that is what i was telling at beginning here:  

you can use Motorised Recon Bn's as an advanced recon 60 miles in front of main body but to be realistic should be a Regiment/Brigade sized unit at least.

 
For German an example can be seen here
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/42-oob/42-10-23/di-pz-aok.html
 
The recon Battalions of 15,21 Panzer Divisions and 90 Africa Division are attached at top level under direct orders of Rommel and not of parent Divisional organisations.