Early war air power

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mdiehl
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RE: Early war air power

Post by mdiehl »

Because that is the way the allied pilots, in particular the RAF, but also the USAAF were trained to fight in the early days of the war. Remember in Europe the RAF fighters could often out turn the Germans...this is to a large extent what the zero bonus is about, which is why witp represents this aspect pretty well.


I have yet to see any documentation that American ed pilots were indoctrinated to continue to pursue enemy a.c. in a turning engagement to the degree that their aircraft were sluggish. if you wish to argue that UK/Cwealth veterans were at an actual disadvantage because they were used to outmaneuvering ME110s and ME 109s, maybe there is something to that. But Japanese pilots had much experience with Chinese pilots that lead them to take risks in front of Allied pilots, and that experience too weighed negatively against the Japanese.

The big Japanese victories over slow speed enemies seem to have occurred when the Japanese had a huge positional advantage. In stand up meeting engagements, the allies held their own. The lesson I derive from this, from a CONSIM perspective, is that the burden should be on the Japanese player to achieve positional advantage, which in turn tends to derive from good operational planning, a fast operational tempo, and cutting enemy lines of supply and communication, or surprise carrier raids. It should not be a "freebie" as is the ZB.
However, once again US pilots took it on the chin when they tried to turn with the nimble Japanese fighters.

Once again, that is incorrect. At high speeds, F4Fs could out-turn zeros. That is how they were able to get good deflection shots in zoom-climbing zeros. And that is why the admonition was to keep airspeed high, rather than to try to turn with zeros. In a sustained fight the energy burning characteristics of the F4F required mutual support or disengagement. But for meeting engagements at high speed, generally it was the Zero that took it on the chin. That is why from the outset (Coral Sea for example) F4Fs generally shot down more zeroes than they lost to zeroes.
On the one hand you argue that specific characteristics aren't important, such as the Zeros ability to out turn any early war allied fighter, yet then you talk about specific turning characteristics of the Wildcat.

It was an example of how one single attribute of the zero in one narrow range of its flight envelope had become the sole criterion for assessment of the plane.
The record of engagements between the P-39 and the Zero were few...the P-39 just simply couldn't catch them most of the time.


It's not true. At altitudes below 10,000 feet a P-39 could handily outrun a zero. So it all came down to the margin of distance between the two. With a 5 minute warning a Zero could get away. The same could be said of the P-39. In a meeting engagement at 8000 feet, it was anyone's fight with the P-39 owning the initial advantage.
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RE: Early war air power

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

A thought that occurs to me reading this thread.

As I understand it, in real life during the first six months of the war the Japanese succeeded beyond even their most optimistic hopes.  But in PBEM games, a Japanese player who only does as well as Japan did in real life is considered a poor player, with the "standard" being expansion well beyond what was achieved in real life.

Well as usually happens in the Zero Bonus threads (of which this is the 83rd or 84th I forget) we have really two sub-threads. One talking about the game and one talking about history. The two sub-threads usually ignore each other, as is happening this time, and just repeat their arguments from the previous 82 or is it 83 incarnations of this thread.

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RE: Early war air power

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That is why from the outset (Coral Sea for example) F4Fs generally shot down more zeroes than they lost to zeroes.

Zeros shot down twice as many F4F's as they lost to them at Coral Sea.

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RE: Early war air power

Post by MineSweeper »

No Wildcat (any make) or Hellcat had a smaller intitial turn rate than a Zero IMO.....when turning at high speed, the plane was not the determined factor, it was the pilot that could withstand the highest G-forces.....[;)]
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RE: Early war air power

Post by AmiralLaurent »

Mdhiel, I think the principal point over which I disagree with you is your notion of experience and the influence it had on battle.

You said: "AFAIC once pilots have been trained to a certain standard, the biggest difference their training can make is in operational loss rates and the propensity to nurse a badly damaged (but still flying, sort of) aircraft home. Some combat experience helps but again, beyond a certain point I don't think it matters much and it can be simulated by advanced training (as the USN and USAAF still do in their advanced tactical training programs). "

IMHO, the experience of a pilot should include how well he can fly and fire, but also his knowledge of his own aircraft, and his knowledge of the enemy aircraft. What is a "killer move" against one aircraft could leave you at the mercy of another... The fact is that you have to learn how your enemy fights and flies too.

This last factor is one of the reasons because, for example, many German aces with hundred of sorties were lost some sorties after transferring from Eastern Front to West, or the other way. The tricks they used before did no more work.

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RE: Early war air power

Post by mdiehl »

Zeros shot down twice as many F4F's as they lost to them at Coral Sea.


I do not believe this claim is correct. Seems like Lundstrom put the number at (as I recall, it WAS a long time ago) roughly 1.2:1 favoring the F4F at Coral Sea. Somewhat better results for F4Fs at Midway. Some day if anyone at Matrix shows a propensity to let stats guide the sim I might try to run it down again. But at any rate as Jwilkerson notes there is that which was vs that which the game presents and ne'er the twain shall meet.

One of these days I'll write the definitive ww2 consim board game and then I'll get to enjoy the hotseat.
No Wildcat (any make) or Hellcat had a smaller intitial turn rate than a Zero IMO.....when turning at high speed, the plane was not the determined factor, it was the pilot that could withstand the highest G-forces.....

That is incorrect, to my knowledge, on several counts. 1. The F4F had a higher turn rate at high speed because it could easily initiate a turn much faster than a Zero. At very high speeds (that both planes could only achieve in a dive) the Wildcat could EASILY out-turn a Zero (besting both the Zero's turn RATE and the Zero's turn RADIUS). That is why the standard accepted disengagement tactic for F4Fs was quickly recognized as the high-speed turning dive out. 2. The Zeke could not withstand G-forces that came close to blacking out her pilot, and most WW2 aircraft could only generate such forces in pull-throughs and push-throughs, or (more commonly) when in uncontrollable death spirals. 3. At high speeds, Zeros were capable of generating Gs enough to pass the threshold of structural integrity of their aircraft when trying to turn, as could happen in an attempt to pull out of a high speed dive. That is a nice way of saying the control surfaces would be damaged.
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RE: Early war air power

Post by mdiehl »

Mdhiel, I think the principal point over which I disagree with you is your notion of experience and the influence it had on battle.

Except that I am not sure that we disagree. I think I said "beyond a certain point" experience was not so important. Case in point, the USN (even in WW2) putting together their elementary advanced fighter tactics program (that evolved into Top Gun) and the USAF's equivalent efforts.
IMHO, the experience of a pilot should include how well he can fly and fire, but also his knowledge of his own aircraft,


I think all of these are properly covered by normal training and by that standard anyone in any Allied aircraft was basically trained well enough to do the job as well as any Japanese or German pilot... save perhaps some mid-war Soviet pilots. (Whose initial attrition rates were horrid. What'd the sovs do to rebuild pilot quality?)
and his knowledge of the enemy aircraft. What is a "killer move" against one aircraft could leave you at the mercy of another... The fact is that you have to learn how your enemy fights and flies too.

Agreed. The thing is, vis a vis the Zero Bonus, the advocates of the Zero Bonus forget that the Japanese had every bit as much to learn about allied capability as the Allies had to learn about Japanese capability. And it shows. If you read the A2A battles of the early war and Solomons the Japanese are fairly consistently chagrined at the durability of enemy a.c. They are also often taking risks that put them too close to Allied a.c. in a turn or overtaking pass. Possibly that is because their earlier OPfor, the CNAF, were flying craft that were lightly armed (comparable to the Oscar) and not particularly well trained in gunnery.

So a zoom-climb at close range in front of a CNAF pilot in an Italian made biplane armed with 2x.30cal was far less risky than the same maneuver in front of an F4F flown by a USN pilot armed with 6x.50cal.
This last factor is one of the reasons because, for example, many German aces with hundred of sorties were lost some sorties after transferring from Eastern Front to West, or the other way. The tricks they used before did no more work.


And I agree that this may have affected the tactics of early war Hurricane pilots. I see no compelling reason to think USAAF pilots flying ANYTHING were particularly misinformed about their enemy. Ignorant maybe, but no more ignorant than Japanese pilots were about the P-40 and F4F. And early war USN pilots routinely beat Japanese pilots flying Zeroes, albeit sometimes by small margins.
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RE: Early war air power

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'll address the last first.
The point on which I would disagree is that any of this indicates that the developers of the game lacked an understanding of early war aircraft.

I can find no other explanation for the "zero bonus" or the generally higher exp values of Japanese pilots. That said, this error is shared by many game designers. The reasons are sociological I think, beginning with the tendency for history's losers of big wars to try to ennoble their cause. Thus the histories from the losers pov typically characterize their effort as fundamentally serving a bad purpose but bravely, even nobly fought, etc, and their superior individual prowess only overcome by grinding attrition, until at long last, having expended the last round from their revolver and hurled at at the onrushing foe, they were dragged down by the zombie-barbarian hoard, etc. That is pretty much how Sakai (who is the most widely read Japanese aviation spindoctor) and pretty much EVERY german general writes of the war. And the tale was convenient for people like Morison, who were pushing issues in order to compete for DoD funds for his branch postwar.
The Allied frontline main fighter planes were nearly a match for the Zero and probably equal to the Oscar...of course its a bit of an apples and oranges comparrision unless one also considers tactics and intended use, etc.


The Allied front line planes were overwhelmingly superior to the Oscar and an even trade on the Zero. The Oscar was a flying deathbox. The AVG ate those things for lunch and dinner regularly. Not because the AVG was full of special hotshot pilots. They were ordinary pre-war US pilots looking for something different. But rather because the P-40 was so vastly superior to the Oscar, that the only way an Oscar could be called a match for a P-40 was to nail one on the ground or taking off or landing.

The A6M had *some* superior characteristics. Better low speed acceleration. Better low speed maneuverability. Better low altitiude to speed, by a narrow marging, than the F4F, and really great climb. But its top speed was lower than that of the P-40, P-39 (low altitude) and Spit. And at high speed it was less maneuverable than the F4F, the Spit, the P-40. It was truly very fragile and armed with the worst exploding-shell cannon of the war (ballistically & load out terms). Ultimately while the A6M was a good industrial solution (saving materials and fuel in operation) it was a poor fighter for survival.
However, the Allies being woefully underprepared for the war didn't have that many fully functional frontline units and many of them were blasted apart at Hickam on 12/7. Add to this fact that while the allied pilots were well trained and cunning, they were inexperienced in battle and still made rookie mistakes.


Even the most experienced Japanese pilots made rookie mistakes. One lesson they seemed never to learn was to not pull up too close to an F4F. The overtaking tail pass, followed by a sharp climb (apparently intended to lure an American aircraft into an energy-burning stall climb) often resulted in death for the Japanese pilot, because 4 or more .50 call could dissassemble and flame any A6M faster than you can say "Banzai" and American deflection shooting was generally superior to anything the Japanese ever imagined.
Add to this the fact that many frontline units were not equipped with front line fighters at the outbreak of the war. The Brewster, P-36, P-35, P-26 and Wirraway were all horrible fighters.

Agreed on most of those. Funny you should laud the Oscar however and yet call the P-36 and P-35 horrible. As planes go they were the equal of the oscar in almost every respect except firepower (in which area these were superior to the Oscar). At PH, those P-36s that became airborne seem to have acquitted themselves well against Zeroes.
I would agree that you add to the above the facts that you mentioned, better logistics, better maintenance, superious numbers and you can see why Japan largely controlled the skies in the opening months of the war.

So, on the whole I would agree with your statement that when Allied top air units met Japanese top air units it was mostly a draw. However, since top Allied units were few in the beginning days of the war and they could not be everywhere, Japan still controlled the air.


Yes. But that is the key point. The Allies "front line" planes and pilots were, for the most part, man for man and plane for plane, as good as any pilot or plane the Japanese could muster. You are of course right that the P-26s (which were extremely uncommon), the Wirraways, and a couple others weren't up to measure. But AFAIC the Allies never really considered these "front line" planes. The only really inferior plane that seems to have been treated as a "front line" plane, briefly, was the F2A3 Buffalo. If you want to call it a hopeless aircraft that seems fair.




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RE: Early war air power

Post by mdiehl »

What are you smokin'?


[8|]

If this becomes a flamewar I'm gonna enjoy reading about how it's all Doggie's fault. [;)]
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RE: Early war air power

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Well as usually happens in the Zero Bonus threads (of which this is the 83rd or 84th I forget)...

it has to be at least the 88th.
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RE: Early war air power

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: m10bob
What are you smokin'?
We don't know because he won't share...[:D]
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RE: Early war air power

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
I have yet to see any documentation that American ed pilots were indoctrinated to continue to pursue enemy a.c. in a turning engagement to the degree that their aircraft were sluggish.

My suggestion for next time is to try reading with your eyes open. [;)]

Seriously, those actaully weren't my words. My assertion and I would be happy to reconsider if I were shown a credible source that states anything to the contrary, is that US pilots during the opening couple months of the war did in fact get involved in turning fights with the Japanese pilots. I have seen nothing here that would suggest otherwise.

Sure, sometimes myths spring up around certain historical events, but I don't think the fact the USAAF and RAF pilots got an @$$ whoopin at the start of the war is a myth.

All that aside I am still trying to discern the connection between any of this discussion and a lack of correct early war modeling of allied planes or pilots. The learning curve, plane characteristics and pilot experience all seem "in the ball park" to me...even right down to the P-39s poor high altitude performance.

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RE: Early war air power

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
What are you smokin'?


[8|]

If this becomes a flamewar I'm gonna enjoy reading about how it's all Doggie's fault. [;)]


A year or two ago it was pretty easy to generate a Flame War on this topic - but I'm not sure there is enough new blood to get cha there any more ... and the old crew here now probably aren't as interested in rehashing this stuff over and over ... there is room for everyone to have an opinion and obviously the room is full of them!!! [:)]

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RE: Early war air power

Post by mdiehl »

My assertion and I would be happy to reconsider if I were shown a credible source that states anything to the contrary, is that US pilots during the opening couple months of the war did in fact get involved in turning fights with the Japanese pilots. I have seen nothing here that would suggest otherwise.


I have seen nothing anywhere that indicates that they regularly lost. As indicated, some turning fights turned out well for early war allied pilots. If you eliminate situations that don't really tell you anything about the qualities of the pilots or men (like the Darwin Raid, the Clark Raid, the PH raid, and other situations where the tactical set up was an ambush of pilots taking off, landing, and the like) you don't actually HAVE all that many combats left. Of the ones left you get engagements where Allied pilots turn and win, as often happened at high speed, and turned and lost, as happened if they were initially at low speed or if the Allied pilot engaged several different Japanese a.c. in sequence. Plane for plane, there is no evidence that the Japanese had any particular advantage. And when you look at ACTUAL LOSSES, where these can be really documented, you discover that at no point did Japanese A6M drivers regularly defeat USN F4F drivers.
Sure, sometimes myths spring up around certain historical events, but I don't think the fact the USAAF and RAF pilots got an @$$ whoopin at the start of the war is a myth.


I think it is to the extent that the early war losses are blamed on men or aircraft. The facts don't seem to support the claim when one looks at actual numbers of aircraft shot down.
All that aside I am still trying to discern the connection between any of this discussion and a lack of correct early warmodeling of allied planes or pilots. The learning curve, plane characteristics and pilot experience all seem "in the ball park" to me...even right down to the P-39s poor high altitude performance.

Naturally if one presupposes that the Allies were the only ones who had lessons to be learned then the Zero Bonus and requisite edge given to the Japanese in name of said "learning curve" might seem proper. But as the Japanese in reality had their own suite of lessons, some of which they simply NEVER learned, the idea of an early war unearned bonus strikes me (and I am sure others) as absurd.

I'm all for a Consim allowing the Japanese to deliver early war whuppass. But it should be for the right reasons. Solid operational planning, good logistical preparation, a high operational tempo that keeps Allied units migrating from base to base, and strategic/logistical isolation of enemy bases. NOT some made-of-whole cloth actualization of a factually unsupportable and generally ambiguous attribution of superiority in enemy a.c. or pilots.

Was I wholly off base from this, the *typical* result in a PBEM game would be the Japanese would hit their historical limit at about the same surface area and at the same timetable as historically. As has been noted in this thread, historical Japanese performance is deemed poor performance in WitP. Part of that is the model that assumes that the Allied player SHOULD expect to be delivered "whuppass" through early 1942. In the real world the Japanese did not expect to deliver same, nor in the real world did the USN expect that "retirement is the only rational option."

In the real war, had the Japanese attempted an invasion of the HI, they would either have lost quite badly, or having succeeded briefly in securing a landing area, they'd have seen any troops landed die owing to isolation within a month or two. Sustaining ground operations as far as the Hawaiian islands or India or continental Australia was NEVER within the capability of the Japanese army and navy, even if they'd found a way to dismiss interservice rivalry.
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RE: Early war air power

Post by mdiehl »

there is room for everyone to have an opinion and obviously the room is full of them!!!

I agree. I was just taking note of the fact that in this particular discussion, as happens every time it has been discussed, it is the, ehhm, "enthusiastic extollers of all things Imperial Japanese in the early war" faction that takes it to the low road first and as fast as possible.
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RE: Early war air power

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
You said: "AFAIC once pilots have been trained to a certain standard, the biggest difference their training can make is in operational loss rates and the propensity to nurse a badly damaged (but still flying, sort of) aircraft home. Some combat experience helps but again, beyond a certain point I don't think it matters much and it can be simulated by advanced training (as the USN and USAAF still do in their advanced tactical training programs). "

IMHO, the experience of a pilot should include how well he can fly and fire, but also his knowledge of his own aircraft , and his knowledge of the enemy aircraft. What is a "killer move" against one aircraft could leave you at the mercy of another... The fact is that you have to learn how your enemy fights and flies too.


This is a key point that the game unfortunately misses. It would be really great if a unit that upgraded it's aircraft took a penalty (kind of a reverse of the "Zero Bonus") for 2-3 months while it's pilots became aclimatized to the charicteristics and capabilities of the new A/C...



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RE: Early war air power

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
You said: "AFAIC once pilots have been trained to a certain standard, the biggest difference their training can make is in operational loss rates and the propensity to nurse a badly damaged (but still flying, sort of) aircraft home. Some combat experience helps but again, beyond a certain point I don't think it matters much and it can be simulated by advanced training (as the USN and USAAF still do in their advanced tactical training programs). "

IMHO, the experience of a pilot should include how well he can fly and fire, but also his knowledge of his own aircraft , and his knowledge of the enemy aircraft. What is a "killer move" against one aircraft could leave you at the mercy of another... The fact is that you have to learn how your enemy fights and flies too.


This is a key point that the game unfortunately misses. It would be really great if a unit that upgraded it's aircraft took a penalty (kind of a reverse of the "Zero Bonus") for 2-3 months while it's pilots became aclimatized to the charicteristics and capabilities of the new A/C...





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RE: Early war air power

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I do not believe this claim is correct. Seems like Lundstrom put the number at (as I recall, it WAS a long time ago) roughly 1.2:1 favoring the F4F at Coral Sea.

I'm afraid you recall incorrectly. It was 2:1 in favor of the Zero.





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RE: Early war air power

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Well as usually happens in the Zero Bonus threads (of which this is the 83rd or 84th I forget)...

it has to be at least the 88th.
[:'(]

But is it a dual-purpose 88? [:'(]
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RE: Early war air power

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I do not believe this claim is correct. Seems like Lundstrom put the number at (as I recall, it WAS a long time ago) roughly 1.2:1 favoring the F4F at Coral Sea.

I'm afraid you recall incorrectly. It was 2:1 in favor of the Zero.





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