ABDA & Malaya commands in CHS

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Well, Sunburst, cites that only a few betty formations trained for low level torpedo attacks before the war because they were used in China to long-range strategic bombing.

For example when Japanese Intelligence learned of that PoW and Repulse were at Singapore they redeployed a torpedo trained squadron (Genzan ¿?) to Saigon.

I think that the same squadron attacked the Marines at Guadalcanal on 9th August (the famous photos of Betties at mast level)

You can make far too much of the missions over China - something JNAF is very proud of ("the first transoceanic air raids in history"). And learned lessons from (unescorted = bad idea). But remember - the bombers were DESIGNED as torpedo bombers - they are not efficient as bomb type bombers - and all the training of the crews (in JNAF) was FOCUSED on things facilitating naval attack (recognition, navigation, approach tactics, etc). I don't think ANY JNAF unit fitted with torpedo bombers as such was not able to perform this mission at need - and the most I would do is make the units that did well get a better proficiency rating. But this isn't a game in which we have proper limits on torpedoes - so we need to compromise a bit. But to the degree we do that - don't think it means that these specialist aircraft with trained to suit crews really were not up to it: surely they were. This was a long term JNAF goal - and the very first long range land based bomber was destroyed - even the paper plans - so no one would be wiser. A slightly pre war version was also used over China. They had been working on this for a long time - and Adm Yamamoto was the one responsible - as head of JNAF air development. It was deliberate - and a part of grand strategy - and there was no compromise - all JNAF long range bomber units HAD to be so trained.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Well, Sunburst, cites that only a few betty formations trained for low level torpedo attacks before the war because they were used in China to long-range strategic bombing.

For example when Japanese Intelligence learned of that PoW and Repulse were at Singapore they redeployed a torpedo trained squadron (Genzan ¿?) to Saigon.

I think that the same squadron attacked the Marines at Guadalcanal on 9th August (the famous photos of Betties at mast level)

Later in the war we must add a few JAAF units. At the start IRL it is easier: ALL JNAF units equipped with such planes were. There was no specialist course in training. It was the general training course - focused on things related to naval attack - with land bombing as an alternate option. Eventually the Army went over to it - but only because enemy ships were so dangerous. If I remember right only two groups trained for the mission in JAAF - both fitted with Ki-67s.
These flew with JNAF regularly - as JNAF also adopted the Army plane - which had been designed as a torpedo bomber.
Probably the first army plane like that in the world - certainly in Japan.

So the questions are - how many "torpedo trained" squadrons were there? And which squadrons were they?

Would it be more or less realistic to have only a portion of the air units able to attack with torpedoes?

Andrew

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

I am of the opinion that it was not lack of trained units ...IMO we didn't see greater use of the torpedoes in 1941- early 1942  due to a number of factors:

A) Force Z was sunk which eliminated a large naval threat early. This resulted in a lack of worthy targets in the South China Sea. So the Rikko units were used to patrol and attack airfields.

B) Lack of facilities in and around Celebes and other portions of the eastern NEI which could be used to adequately equip and arm the planes.

As an example - in February 1942 the USS Lexington approached Rabaul ...the Osprey book has this to say ...
"This was Vice Adm Wilson Brown's Group, centered around the fleet carrier USS Lexington, heading for a raid on Rabaul. Rear Adm Eiji Goto, 24th Koku Sentai commander, ordered an attack, but torpedoes had not yet been brought to this newly captured outpost."
 
The planes conducting the attack were from the 4th Ku which was composed of three chutai ...one from Chitose Kokutai which had been supporting the Wake island operations and two other chutai from Takao Kokutai which had been based on Jolo. The book makes no mention that the units weren't trained merely that torpedoes were not available. And these were not the units that attacked Force Z.

The attack on Force Z was carried out by Kanoya Ku, Genzan Ku and Mihoro Ku. Genzan Ku flying Type 96's used torpedoes. Mihoro Ku flying Type 96's used bombs and torpedoes and Kanoya Ku used torpedoes.

I agree.

To this add logistics: it was slow to send forward torpedoes and specialists in their care; it is hard to know where you will want them - so you must guess. Unless you wait until they get forward - and only if you guessed right - can they ever be used. Logistics is the heart of military operations.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

In the case of Rabaul it was the classic case of too little pace of preperation. The Japanese were asleep at the wheel logistically given the focus on the Southern advance. This created opportunities for US pinprick strikes.

Had the Japanese moved south sooner in this area there was virtually nothing to stop them. It does not matter how "inadequate" the forces would be - they would outrank what faced them. One special forces unit divided into five platoons - scattered from New Guinea to Fiji. Talk about thin!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

If the allies don't so this, Nik, then they can't progress across the map.

To move against Lunga or New Guinea puts you within range of the torpedo swarm, whose base is far out of the range of allied LBA. I had one game agaisnt the AI where, in trying to keep Pt Moresby supplied, I lost well over a hundred AKs in that harbor - and I was cramming every fighter I could spare into that base (and that wasn't invading PM, it was merely trying to hang on to it).

Its not the whole problem, but its part of it. Thats all i was saying. The principle culprit is not too many torpedoes. Its too many planes able to concentrate quickly at one or two bases. I'd also say its a bit of too many planes and trained pilots. (not as in, trained to drop torps...but trained period)

The Allied side has a similar problem in terms of the ability to concentrate and maintain concentration.

When the war began JNAF was bigger than any other naval air force in the world - and significantly bigger than USNAF.
It was inconvenient. That it was unable to sustain the training required by both groth and attrition is a different subject - it was bigger early in the war. You cannot reasonably simulate what it could do with too few pilots. And it isn't clear we have yet given it enough pilots - as I am conservative about changes - introducing them conservatively.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Well, Sunburst, cites that only a few betty formations trained for low level torpedo attacks before the war because they were used in China to long-range strategic bombing.

For example when Japanese Intelligence learned of that PoW and Repulse were at Singapore they redeployed a torpedo trained squadron (Genzan ¿?) to Saigon.

I think that the same squadron attacked the Marines at Guadalcanal on 9th August (the famous photos of Betties at mast level)

However Sunburst does confirm that the conception of the G3m/G4m plane was use as a naval torpedo bomber. I found no reference to specific groups that only trained in torp action, however the naval units were pulled into China where they gained valuable operational experience. However on the con side, too much sustained use in this role would degrade their naval attack skills and require 'refresher' sessions.

Another oft highlighted issue with WitP's exp gradiant. You can build up fighter and naval attack proficiency simply by bombing land targets.

Correct. See also the earlier work on Japanese Aircraft 1910 - 1941; the book Zero by two Japanese pilots; Kaigun and of course Francillon; throw in any biography of Yamamoto. This work was deliberate, long standing, and core to Japanese naval thinking. The long range land based torpedo bomber was a sort of "mace weapon" (in modern PLA parlance) - meant to equalize the war against the larger enemy. No one in Japan ever thought in terms of NOT training all such units for this capability. [sorry spence]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: spence

it doesn't help that players often tend to stick their forces down the throats of land based air power with a "as long as they get through and land mentality"

Both sides can afford to do it cause they really don't need all the merchie hulls they are given but the tendency is exaccerbated for the Japanese player since "they" will get through and land since the Allies' bombs seem never to sink the merchie til 3 weeks after the battle is over.

The attack on Force Z was carried out by Kanoya Ku, Genzan Ku and Mihoro Ku. Genzan Ku flying Type 96's used torpedoes. Mihoro Ku flying Type 96's used bombs and torpedoes and Kanoya Ku used torpedoes

Even the premier and most famous attack (and the one that apparently justifes in some folks minds the "all torpedos all the time" model) involved some of these a/c dropping bombs.

In my Scenario 2 mod I tried to create a special torpedo bomber version of the Nell, Betty and Kate while editing the normal to carry bombs as the default loadout....didn't work. At least some of the "bombs only" Nells and Bettys launched with torpedos anyways during some testing. (Might have something to do with hard coding of the slots for torpedo carrying planes...not very good at this editor stuff though.)

Perhaps it is time to start doing things about "AKs to burn." I began with that goal - and figured out that many of them are tied up with cargoes we cannot see - so they are 9999ed out in RHS.

It is quite true that the attack on POW was with bombs as well as torpedoes - not that the bombs did anything noticable -
and IF I could select loadouts - and IF we had to track torpedoes - that is just how I would do it too. More complex game required for that. [But you CAN do it in RHS - if you mix units]

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Sometimes I think that WITP is Billy Mitchell's wet dream: the land based bomber controls the battlefield. The Betties and Nells certainly control the seas in the game far better than they ever did IRL, and the allied level bombers are much more accurate at any sort of altitude above 2000' than they ever were IRL. This causes a much greater loss of shipping and troops (going down with the ship), than we actually saw.

I think that there's a combination of factors involved in this, but I am in favour of any attempts to fix it (that work).

Methinks once again you are not playing RHS. Bombers do NOT control the same way they do prior to it. The change at the device level was a big part of it. So was air combat changes. So was AAA combat changes. And finally - I did also limit which units can carry torpedoes - and now even reversed that - so upgrading to certain planes will NOT give you torpedoes - only if your unit is born with the plane AND I put the torpedo on it there. The chance a few planes will penetrate is high - but not enough to do nuclear bombardment.

So are you saying Sid that you added torpedoes at the air group level and not at the aircraft level?

[el cid again]

In some cases, yes. In other cases, the other way around. Some units are loaded for ASW, many for land bombing, some for naval bombing with AP bombs, and sometimes some bombers have special loadouts (e.g. ground support or biological warfare). So far it appears all the loadout combinations work - although it may be some do not work as intended.

I was afraid that the big 4 engine bombers - which do have a torpedo option - could be upgraded to by units that were not naval at all - so I set the plane to GP bombs as the default. That way any unit that upgrades to it will never get torpedoes. With this scheme, only units I start with torpedoes get to use them - ever.

The Allies have this too - some Ventura have torpedo loadouts - some have AP bomb loadouts - but any unit that upgrades will end up with the default GP bomb loadout. You can tell the UNIT initial loadout because I put it in the unit designation somehow: (AP) (GP) (T) for American units. IJN uses actual unit designators in many cases - a G at the beginning of the unit designation means Torpedo loadout - an H means bomb loadout - a K means ASW loadout - P means naval patrol (bomb/DC) loadout etc. When this does not work there is a suffix (e.g. BWFR for biological warfare loadout is the new form, used to be SP for "special"; K for ASW loadout, etc.) Players can tamper with these initial values - and must do so when they upgrade - but it gives the scenario designer more influence over AI players -
and it permits limiting what humans can do. Thus if I want FEW torpedo units for an aircraft type - I put none at all in the aircraft database - but instead in the unit loadout. [This drives error checkers nuts by the way]

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Any reason some of the British/ Commonwealth / Australian units could not be made ABDA yet leave the bases as SE Asia?

I just had a late thought about this idea. If the bases remain SEA all of the air units should remain SEA so they can freely redeploy within Malaya. But the LCUs could still be made restricted.

Another way to work around the flag issue would be to attach the Malaya units & bases to India command.

[el cid again]

There is a difference in India Command in CHS and in RHS - not entirely for good reasons - but I have never changed back. In CHS it is a RESTRICTED command - so units cannot leave the command or embark. But in RHS it is an UNRESTRICTED command - so units CAN leave the area. You can achieve the same effect using SE Asia in CHS.

The flag issue might be addressed by an ABDA flag - vice a Dutch flag.

IF we made Malay units and locations ABDA in RHS, units could NOT leave Malaya by ship or as air cargo - but air units could freely transfer to DEI islands. I like it - but it is a lot of work. Any land unit you wanted to be free to leave could be assigned to SE Asia command.