Early war air power

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I did say, in most cases. However i should have clarified it by saying "in cases where the men and equipment had similar levels of training."

I'm well aware of the lopsided ratios achieved by the Allies latewar once the Axis airforce(s) started running out of qualified pilots.

Yup - I think the clear thrust of the "jousting" between Mdiehl, Chez and Nik has been related to 1942 in the PTO/CBI.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I did say, in most cases. However i should have clarified it by saying "in cases where the men had similar levels of training and the equipment was comperable. "

I'm well aware of the lopsided ratios achieved by the Allies latewar once the Axis airforce(s) started running out of qualified pilots.

I doubt training accounted for all the difference. A difference in airspeed of 40 knots translated to a 2-1 difference in exchange rate. I modeled the aerodynamic performance and energy budgets for the F4F4 and the A6M2, and they were very comparable. Given that the naval pilots on both sides were quite competent, the historical outcome was understandable.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: herwin
Based on a study I did thirty years ago, the exchange rate between Zeros and F4Fs during the early part of the war was about one for one.

Not much data for the study, was there? F4f's hardly engaged Zero's in the first 5 months of the war...

Plenty of data-you just had to spend the time looking for it and look for it in the right places.

Well according to Lundstrom the first meeting between Zeros and F4F's (the -3 iirc) took place at Coral Sea. So I would be most ineterested in what other data exists documenting this matchup in the first 5 months of the war?

[Nikademus]

I don't doubt it from what i've read. We could try an experiment though. You and I can get 10 hours of training and then go face off against TheElf and see how far we'd get.

[:)]

[niceguy2005]

IMO, mdiehl's reference to Coral Sea and Midway are irrelevant when talking about the zero bonus since those battles occured well into 1942, after the zero bonus would have expired. If Wildcat pilots had encountered Zeros, say around PH in the opening days of the war the outcome could very well have been much different. The lessons learned by the army pilots in the PI had already been shared with the Navy by the time those battles happened.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

IMO, mdiehl's reference to Coral Sea and Midway are irrelevant when talking about the zero bonus since those battles occured well into 1942, after the zero bonus would have expired. If Wildcat pilots had encountered Zeros, say around PH in the opening days of the war the outcome could very well have been much different. The lessons learned by the army pilots in the PI had already been shared with the Navy by the time those battles happened.

When I get home I'll go through First Team and draw out the A2A losses...unless someone already has that information...Nik? I was skimming through the book this morning and the data needs to be extracted from the text. IIRC the Japanese lost no Zero's to the American CAP. Flatley(sp?) felt that the F4F-3 could engage the Zero successfully with a height advantage and if they didn't try to get into a turning fight.

[Nikademus]

Yes, i have extracted it.

and your memory is correct. No Zeros fell to the American CAP.

[Speedysteve]

LOL[:D]

[Nikademus]

laugh it up fuzzball!

[:D] (time for coffee....big words confuse Nik's fingers)

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I don't doubt it from what i've read. We could try an experiment though. You and I can get 10 hours of training and then go face off against TheElf and see how far we'd get.

[:)]

Outta the cockpit and into your chuts .. if you're very very lucky!!!!

Well that is assuming you could even get airborne after 10 hours apiece ...

[:D]

[Nikademus]

I'll just engage the autopilot thingamagig while still on the ground. no prob!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: herwin
Based on a study I did thirty years ago, the exchange rate between Zeros and F4Fs during the early part of the war was about one for one.

Not much data for the study, was there? F4f's hardly engaged Zero's in the first 5 months of the war...

Plenty of data-you just had to spend the time looking for it and look for it in the right places.

Curious Herwin..., where did these engagements take place and how many aircraft were involved? There were a few F4f's at Wake, and I suppose one might have gotten airborne at Pearl Harbor..., but isn't it otherwise limited to those few "pinprick suprise raids" the USN staged on forward Japanese bases? Compared to the Japanese/Allied engagements involving P-40's or Buffaloes or Hurricanes or other A/C, I would have thought F4f vs. Zero data extreamly rare before Coral Sea.

[ChezDaJez]

Well according to Lundstrom the first meeting between Zeros and F4F's (the -3 iirc) took place at Coral Sea. So I would be most ineterested in what other data exists documenting this matchup in the first 5 months of the war?

It was at Wake on 22 December 41 (Lundstrom, "the First Team" page 41). See my post above. IIRC, the first Zero shot down by an F4F was at Coral Sea.

Yup, at Coral Sea. Lundstrom, First Team, page 203-204. Ltjg Haas downed WO Imamura during the attack on the Shoho. No Wildcats were lost in this action.

Chez

[ChezDaJez]

but isn't it otherwise limited to those few "pinprick suprise raids" the USN staged on forward Japanese bases?

Notably the Marshall Islands raids where the F4F wasn't particulary effective against the A5M Claude.

Chez

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

but isn't it otherwise limited to those few "pinprick suprise raids" the USN staged on forward Japanese bases?

Notably the Marshall Islands raids where the F4F wasn't particulary effective against the A5M Claude.

Chez

hmmm this is a new one for me. any suggestions on a good read about this engagement?

[Nikademus]

Got ya covered Chez.

The first Zero was shot down by an F4F over the Shoho. The Zero was taken by surprise while at low altitude and was alone. The pilot never saw his attacker till it was too late.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

but isn't it otherwise limited to those few "pinprick suprise raids" the USN staged on forward Japanese bases?

Notably the Marshall Islands raids where the F4F wasn't particulary effective against the A5M Claude.

Chez

hmmm this is a new one for me. any suggestions on a good read about this engagement?

Lundstrom Vol I gives a detailed account. IIRC (at work) it was typically indecisive given the force levels. One A5M was downed at point blank range where i think that the F4F actually hit it physically. Another F4F got peppered good by an A5M but fortunately the makeshift armor plate held and the F4F was able to accelerate away from the attacker.

Neither side commented very nicely about the other's skill sets afterward (read: trash talk) [:D]

[ChezDaJez]

Lundstrom Vol I gives a detailed account. IIRC (at work) it was typically indecisive given the force levels. One A5M was downed at point blank range where i think that the F4F actually hit it physically. Another F4F got peppered good by an A5M but fortunately the makeshift armor plate held and the F4F was able to accelerate away from the attacker.

Neither side commented very nicely about the other's skill sets afterward (read: trash talk)

Yup, and Halsey had a lot to say about his ship's AA effectiveness and fighter direction. Both were poor enough that 5 Nells managed to penetrate both the CAP and the AA fire and drop their bombs close enough to the Enterprise to kill one man and start a small fire. One Nell, damaged by the AA, pulled up and circled back, evidently looking to crash into the Enterprise. He nearly made it too. He left his wing in the Enterprise's catwalk.

This raid caught the Japanese by surprise who had only A5M Claudes and Nells for defence but they did respond quite well considering. Many, many fledgling mistakes were made by the US fleet but that was part of the purpose of the raid... strike a lightly defended area to tweak the Japanese nose, identify their own deficncies and to improve their combat efficiency.

Chez

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I'll just engage the autopilot thingamagig while still on the ground. no prob!

LOL

[MineSweeper]

Even read in Lundstrom's book that some Japanese float planes (Jakes or Elfs) did particulary good against the Wildcat's (at the Marshall Is. raids)..though no US planes were shot down.....