I have only identified 115, 120 and 129 th.
Are these part of 18th Route Army?
In other words, are all forms of WITP duplicating them by including them separately and as part of 18th Route Army (by whatever name)??? Or were there still other Red Army divisions?
Red Army Divisions
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Red Army Divisions
could be part of 4th New Army (Communist forces at South) or 8th Route Army (the larger Communist military units). I know 120th Division belongs to 8th Route Army (Red Army).
For the other hand, the Chinese New Fourth Army was formed under Red commander, Yeh Ting at Jan.1938 to fight the japanese in occupied territories. It had been reestructured at 1941.
For the other hand, the Chinese New Fourth Army was formed under Red commander, Yeh Ting at Jan.1938 to fight the japanese in occupied territories. It had been reestructured at 1941.
WITP-AE, WITE
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el cid again
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RE: Red Army Divisions
ORIGINAL: Fletcher
could be part of 4th New Army (Communist forces at South) or 8th Route Army (the larger Communist military units). I know 120th Division belongs to 8th Route Army (Red Army).
For the other hand, the Chinese New Fourth Army was formed under Red commander, Yeh Ting at Jan.1938 to fight the japanese in occupied territories. It had been reestructured at 1941.
My review of Chinese Allied troops has caused me to reform WITP organizational presentation as follows:
The Red Army HQ is now the Red New 4th Army HQ - the overall military command of the Reds. I have made the "commander" Mao Tse Tung - although in fact it may be that Yeh Teng is the formation leader in 1941.
The 8th Route Army is now the 8th / 18th Route Army - and as our Chinese associate has posted above - this was really 18th in 1941 - I make it dual to help players spot the unit (as I posted above)
There are a number of Red guerilla units as well as the 8 / 18 th Route Army under the New Forth Army overall command.
There are also these three divisions - but I think they may be the ONLY divisions - and may thus duplicate the contents of the 8 / 18th. OR there may be still other divisions that formed later - and these should be shown as separate independent divisions instead of them. I see no raason not to get this right - if we can. Apparently it has never been correct in any form of WITP. Not that it isn't confusing. I have been reviewing essay's in the collection China's Bitter Victory.
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treespider
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- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:34 am
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RE: Red Army Divisions
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: Fletcher
could be part of 4th New Army (Communist forces at South) or 8th Route Army (the larger Communist military units). I know 120th Division belongs to 8th Route Army (Red Army).
For the other hand, the Chinese New Fourth Army was formed under Red commander, Yeh Ting at Jan.1938 to fight the japanese in occupied territories. It had been reestructured at 1941.
My review of Chinese Allied troops has caused me to reform WITP organizational presentation as follows:
The Red Army HQ is now the Red New 4th Army HQ - the overall military command of the Reds. I have made the "commander" Mao Tse Tung - although in fact it may be that Yeh Teng is the formation leader in 1941.
The 8th Route Army is now the 8th / 18th Route Army - and as our Chinese associate has posted above - this was really 18th in 1941 - I make it dual to help players spot the unit (as I posted above)
There are a number of Red guerilla units as well as the 8 / 18 th Route Army under the New Forth Army overall command.
There are also these three divisions - but I think they may be the ONLY divisions - and may thus duplicate the contents of the 8 / 18th. OR there may be still other divisions that formed later - and these should be shown as separate independent divisions instead of them. I see no raason not to get this right - if we can. Apparently it has never been correct in any form of WITP. Not that it isn't confusing. I have been reviewing essay's in the collection China's Bitter Victory.
Currently at the office but I think I have it correct in Treespider's CHS. I start two of the divisions in Yenen and the third I start in the Chahar region. I'll double check when I get home....in addition to providng more information about these units.
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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treespider
- Posts: 5781
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:34 am
- Location: Edgewater, MD
RE: Red Army Divisions
From Kenneth Allens work on the PLA
Eight Route Army
Following the Long March and Japan’s invasion of China proper in July 1937, the Nationalists and Communists established a united front, whereby the Red Army was reorganized into two primary units. The Eighth Route Army (balujun) had three subordinate divisions (115th, 120th, 129th), but did not follow the 3-3 system for the brigades and regiments. Each division had two subordinate brigades, which in turn had two subordinate regiments as shown in Table 1.4.51 The TO&E for the division was 15,000 troops. By the mid-1930s, the Nationalist Army had over forty armies (jituanjun) composed of numerous corps.52 Therefore, when the CCP and KMT formed the united front, the official name for the Eighth Route Army was the 18th jituanjun. When the Eighth Route Army was established, the Red Army’s front army and juntuan disappeared as organizational entities. However, as noted above, the terms are still referred to in order to depict organizational entities above the army-level today.
Table 1.4 Eighth Route Army Organization in 1937
Division 115th
Brigade 343rd-Regiment 685th, 686th
Brigade 344th-Regiment 687th, 688th
Indep Regiment 689th
Division 120th
Brigade 358th-Regiments 715th, 716th
Brigade 359th-Regiments717th, 718th
Division 129th
Brigade 385th-Regiments 769th, 770th
Brigade 386th-Regiments 771st, 772nd
51 The brigade designators are derived by multiplying the division by three, then
subtracting one and two (115 x 3 = 345, -1 = 344, -2 = 343), but the regiment designators
are derived by multiplying the brigade by two, then subtracting one (343 x 2 = 686, -1 =
685).
New Fourth Army
The second Red Army organization formed during the united front was the New Fourth Army (xinsijun), which had four subordinate detachments (zhidui), with a total of 10,000 troops. These detachments were created from the Red Army Guerilla Force (hongjun youjidui) that remained in the south during the Long March.54 In 1941, the New Fourth Army reorganized its detachments into seven divisions and one independent brigade as shown in Table 1.5.
Table 1.5 New Fourth Army Reorganization in 1941Division 1st
Brigades 1st, 2nd, 3rd
Division2nd
Brigades4th, 5th,6th
Division 3rd
Brigades7th, 8th,9th
Division 4th
Brigades10th, 11th,12th
Division 5th
13th, 14th,15th
Division 6th
Brigades 16th,18th`
Division7th
Brigades 9th
Eight Route Army
Following the Long March and Japan’s invasion of China proper in July 1937, the Nationalists and Communists established a united front, whereby the Red Army was reorganized into two primary units. The Eighth Route Army (balujun) had three subordinate divisions (115th, 120th, 129th), but did not follow the 3-3 system for the brigades and regiments. Each division had two subordinate brigades, which in turn had two subordinate regiments as shown in Table 1.4.51 The TO&E for the division was 15,000 troops. By the mid-1930s, the Nationalist Army had over forty armies (jituanjun) composed of numerous corps.52 Therefore, when the CCP and KMT formed the united front, the official name for the Eighth Route Army was the 18th jituanjun. When the Eighth Route Army was established, the Red Army’s front army and juntuan disappeared as organizational entities. However, as noted above, the terms are still referred to in order to depict organizational entities above the army-level today.
Table 1.4 Eighth Route Army Organization in 1937
Division 115th
Brigade 343rd-Regiment 685th, 686th
Brigade 344th-Regiment 687th, 688th
Indep Regiment 689th
Division 120th
Brigade 358th-Regiments 715th, 716th
Brigade 359th-Regiments717th, 718th
Division 129th
Brigade 385th-Regiments 769th, 770th
Brigade 386th-Regiments 771st, 772nd
51 The brigade designators are derived by multiplying the division by three, then
subtracting one and two (115 x 3 = 345, -1 = 344, -2 = 343), but the regiment designators
are derived by multiplying the brigade by two, then subtracting one (343 x 2 = 686, -1 =
685).
New Fourth Army
The second Red Army organization formed during the united front was the New Fourth Army (xinsijun), which had four subordinate detachments (zhidui), with a total of 10,000 troops. These detachments were created from the Red Army Guerilla Force (hongjun youjidui) that remained in the south during the Long March.54 In 1941, the New Fourth Army reorganized its detachments into seven divisions and one independent brigade as shown in Table 1.5.
Table 1.5 New Fourth Army Reorganization in 1941Division 1st
Brigades 1st, 2nd, 3rd
Division2nd
Brigades4th, 5th,6th
Division 3rd
Brigades7th, 8th,9th
Division 4th
Brigades10th, 11th,12th
Division 5th
13th, 14th,15th
Division 6th
Brigades 16th,18th`
Division7th
Brigades 9th
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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el cid again
- Posts: 16983
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm
RE: Red Army Divisions
OK - this is all very interesting. One wonders how Col Carlson came to think the Reds strictly used triangular organization? Unless they really did by the time he got there. [USMC allegedly adopted it from the Red model - or so the legend they teach Marine boots goes]
It would seem that I was both right and wrong: the three divisions numbered above are duplicated by the 8th / 18th Army.
But the New Fourth Army is a different kettle of fish - and it is more or less absent at this time in my formulation - it is a HQ only. Seems IT should be a separate formation.
So the number of combat units is correct, but the names are not.
If we simply rename the (duplicated) 8/18th as New 4 th - and return the Red Army HQ to pure HQ status -
we would then have it right. Approximately.
No other divisions formed during WWII???
It would seem that I was both right and wrong: the three divisions numbered above are duplicated by the 8th / 18th Army.
But the New Fourth Army is a different kettle of fish - and it is more or less absent at this time in my formulation - it is a HQ only. Seems IT should be a separate formation.
So the number of combat units is correct, but the names are not.
If we simply rename the (duplicated) 8/18th as New 4 th - and return the Red Army HQ to pure HQ status -
we would then have it right. Approximately.
No other divisions formed during WWII???
-
treespider
- Posts: 5781
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:34 am
- Location: Edgewater, MD
RE: Red Army Divisions
ORIGINAL: el cid again
OK - this is all very interesting. One wonders how Col Carlson came to think the Reds strictly used triangular organization? Unless they really did by the time he got there. [USMC allegedly adopted it from the Red model - or so the legend they teach Marine boots goes]
It would seem that I was both right and wrong: the three divisions numbered above are duplicated by the 8th / 18th Army.
But the New Fourth Army is a different kettle of fish - and it is more or less absent at this time in my formulation - it is a HQ only. Seems IT should be a separate formation.
So the number of combat units is correct, but the names are not.
If we simply rename the (duplicated) 8/18th as New 4 th - and return the Red Army HQ to pure HQ status -
we would then have it right. Approximately.
No other divisions formed during WWII???
No you are correct about the 3-3 system...but it was not used for the 8th/18th. AFAIK no other divisions were formed during the war...however their were several to dozens more regiments formed. I have opted to allow the inherent guerilla garrison requirement represent these units.
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB
"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
-
el cid again
- Posts: 16983
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm
RE: Red Army Divisions
Reasonable. I think we could easily go too far - because of the 30 day regeneration of lost units - and that includes guerilla units. Which I like so much I multiplied them - and made them supply independent in a different sense than you did. I also made them bigger - de facto battalions called regiments - with even a handful of heavy weapons (which I can add because I created light heavy weapon devices - a tricky thing - since the usual rules won't work - it took finding a way to manipulate the data to do it). I am inclined to think that we should pretty much start with the full force and let the garrison rule and the rapid replacement rule do most of the rest. Only something significant should be added - like the units in India. At a completely different place, with a different logistic base, of a different organization, and of higher morale (they even paid the troops - unheard of in China) - they are not normal in any sense!