Question: Frontage - Formation

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GoodGuy
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Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

I forgot to post this here, although this issue (if it's one at all) has been bothering me for a while, and, if I'm not mistaken, I've encountered this phenomenon after the first or the second patch, but I am not 100% sure, anymore.

Pls check this screenshot: I've set the formation to "successive lines", a formation where a given unit is supposed to approach the enemy (or to defend) in 2 lines/rows (one could say 2 "waves" too, i guess, on Bn level). But the current frontage (pls see red formation button) would be 2 columns, in fact. The width of these "lines" (frontage indicator) rather reflects a double-column line-up than anything else, since the unit has 120 troops. The facing would be the same if auto-facing would be off, so I'd have to change the facing (to the West or the East), in order to get the desired width of the "original" successive lines-frontage, a feature that used to be in the game once. Even large arty/base units would use columns instead of "real" successive lines known from HttR (and COTA 1.0 i think).

Did I overlook a comment covering a change of the code for frontage/formation (in the list of changes/fixes from earlier patches), or is it an oversight on your end?.

EDIT: Another question comes to my mind, as I've not used successive lines as attack task on Bn or Rgt level for quite a while: I've seen HQs sending 2 waves (consisting of 2 Coys) to execute an attack (I ordered succ. lines), but what about a Rgt, or let's say a "Kampfgruppe" formed by the user, would these formations' HQs send more than 2 waves? If not, I'd love to have a new button .... something like "waves/succ. lines", where the user could enter a value to determine the number of lines/waves (waves = number of Coys, on a Rgt level for example). Would come in handy for BFTB scenarios, for sure. [:)]
Would be a great tool to attack enemy strong-points. The Russians used this approach (ignoring casualties) excessively, the Germans used that in the Ardennes offensive (on Korps/Army level) to clean out the bulge and to protect the flanks (ok, that was the plan at least, eheh).

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Tim Stone
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by Arjuna »

Successive lines should mean a single column of units each in line formation. There can be more than two rows - in fact your typical Bn with three companies and a mortar platoon, would have a single column of five units.
 
What I suspect is happening in the above screenshot is that the enemy units close by have prevented the force from forming up properly and adopting the correct formation. The HHour has fired and so the assault gets underway with the units assaulting from their current positions.
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by JeF »

If I'm not wrong, GoodGuy selected a single company for attack.

In this case, woudn't the formation be a don't care ? Formations are for multiple units, not just one.
The indicative final footprint is just that in that case : indicative.

Or I lost it.

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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

What I suspect is happening in the above screenshot is that the enemy units close by have prevented the force from forming up properly and adopting the correct formation.
No. Everytime I choose this formation, it will result in the very same frontage/approach. Pls fire up COTA, select ANY scenario, and issue an attack using this formation, to a BN or a COY, it doesn't matter. The task pointer will look exactly like this.
Successive lines should mean a single column of units each in line formation. There can be more than two rows - in fact your typical Bn with three companies and a mortar platoon, would have a single column of five units.
Well, but "succ. lines" should be accessible for single coys too, I think. Also, the frontage/task indicator still looks like there'd be 2 or 3 columns (imagine several platoons on a coy level) arranged vertically, as displayed in my example above (red button) ?

From what I gathered from books about military history, lines (the lines I am talking about, pls see pics below) had been used to search/clear any remaining opposition, for example, or to overcome enemy strong-points by spreading troops (organized in lines) in a sector and/or sending multiple waves (succ. lines) against this very same area.

Image

A single Coy would have formed up in 2 or more (horizontal !) lines, in order to break enemy opposition in a sector, where the idea was to raise chances that a given enemy position (trenches for example) could be penetrated at multiple spots covered by the attacking unit's lines. Police forces used that formation here all the time to block ppl demonstrating during the G8 summit. Police forces use that formation when searching for disaster or murder victims too, let's say in woods. You get the idea?
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

...


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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

On a Bn level, the successive lines I was talking about would look like pic no. 3 (see below). On a Rgt level, succ. lines could look like fig. 4, but could be concentrated using 1 (!) column consisting of up to 9 lines/waves (waves = Coys), too. The russians used variants of 3) and/or 4), afaik.

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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

...


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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
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Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

Picture 5) shows the single line formation featured in HttR. My question: It looks like there'd be like 2 or 3 columns (similar to the -single- road columns) next to each other, although line (for a single company) should have a way wider frontage, since a line (in my books) is not a column. A line is used to block/recon/defend/attack a somewhater wider area, no?.
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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

Picture 6) shows the successive line formation in HttR. A rather concentrated frontage.... strange, since this coy has 120 troops.
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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

....enemy units close by have prevented the force from forming up properly and adopting the correct formation.
Picture 7) (COTA) clearly shows that there are no enemy units in the area. It looks like the code had been changed, either on purpose (again, I might have missed a corresponding comment in the list of fixes), or the frontage is being "rotated" (i don't know how to explain this properly, but u might get the idea) each time this formation is ordered, or because this type of formation won't be used for a single company (as JeF suspected), or because lines are columns in your books, while the actual formation/layout would be columns for me. Pls enlighten me.

The green rectangle on screenshot 7 displays my idea of what the frontage/formation should look like, if using successive lines, the blue rectangle would be "line" formation, wider and with reduced depth.

If I'd be uber-accurate, I'd even take the unit's "footprint" (white rectangle) generated by the engine into account, so no matter if one refers to a Bn or a bigger formation or a single company, the width of the original task/formation (yellow) seems to be wrong, to me.
......

On a Bn/Rgt level, line should be like all Coys being positioned on the same (horizontal) line, not in a (vertical) column where all the other Coys follow the leading Coy.

The line formation (picture 8) was used by US Coys to attack/approach perimeters/towns suspected to be used by german units, in west germany. The max width enabled such Coys to spot/exploit weak spots within the enemy's defense, where a different approach with punctual attacks/patrols would have taken more/too much time.

Sometimes line formation was just used in an attempt to crack a defensive line by attacking all along the perimeter, especially if the troops had to cross open terrain/fields. The idea here was like "at least some of the guys will reach the enemy positions".

Dunno if these pics/posts made sense, I tried my best to explain my pov.
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General Anthony McAuliffe
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Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

The "line" mentioned above:

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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
GoodGuy
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RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Successive lines should mean a single column of units each in line formation.

Hmm... well, even if single coys don't use successive lines, the frontage should still look like the green rectangle above (on a Bn+ level). The pic below displays your definition of successive lines (pls note the width), if i'm not mistaken, but the original frontage on screenshot 7 (yellow rectangle) reflects a different layout/definition:

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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
GoodGuy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany

RE: Question: Frontage - Formation

Post by GoodGuy »

Ha, almost forgot this screenshot.
Pls compare the pic below to screenshot no. 7). A Line formation has been issued to an entire Bn. The frontage looks somewhat different, right? I'd get the same result if using a Rgt, a div. or Coy.

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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
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