Siberian Reinforcements

[IrishGuards]

Well yes I must say my advances in Russia have been a little slower than normal ... Against a HP .. [;)]
I keep getting held up moving my maximum distance by those Russian guys I am sending to the Allmighty ... [:D]

4 turns into Russia .. 2.25 Mil dead 2600 Tanks destroyed .. To say nothing of the fact of the decimated units Russia has limping to the rear ... [8|]
The only lines I see are the ones on the map ..

Captured .. Odessa .. Brest .. Kiev .. Minsk .. Riga .. Den and some Ore [X(]
3 more turns I will be in Rostov ...
The damage I have taken has been very minor ... easy to repair as well as build more pointy units ... [:D]
IDG

[SMK-at-work]

Yeah but the "Siberians" did not arrive en masse, or even all on the Moscow Front, and nore were most of htem from "Siberia.  Zhukov himself writes in his memoirs that the number of troops transfered from the East was unimportant (17 rifle/Cavalry divisions??  well Cav divisions are small anyway, and the SU had 200 or so divisions at the time.....8 Tank brigades?  About the output of 2-3 weeks, only current output was modern types, any transfered from "Siberia" were already obsolete!) and most of hte troops used in hte Moscow counterattacked were carefully husbanded reserves of new units and production made up over Winter.
 
What stopped the Germans was supply - in December 1941 they still had more men in Army Group Centre than the Sov's had opposite them by a half-million or so.....but they had no supplies.

[targul]

ORIGINAL: Sweeper

Mr Targul. Read my message again.

You are speaking about numbers that did not arrive as you want them too. If Russia can't be held well thats another issue that needs to be fixed.

But wanting a hord arrive with juicy stuff is simply wrong. Do you want the designers to get them in division by the division!!!! [X(]

No where have I said anything about how they should arrive. I just said they need to arrive. I do not know of any game that gives them all to you at once. But I also have not played any game where they were simply not provided at all until this one.

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: targul

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I dont think having units just show up since it happened in reality is the answer. Then you have to start doing that for all participants.When do you stop with these one off reinforcement surges? If the devs kow-tow to the "Siberia" crowd, I know full well and good I'm getting on my rickety soapbox and screaming for Anders Polish Corps to show up for the British as a reinforcement. And so on.

Maybe a one time point dump between nov and jan of the 1st winter might be an answer. I just don't know.

So do you somehow believe the Soviets and African forces should be shorted because it is too easy to give reinforcements. As for the Polish, New Zealand, Aussies, South African, and Indians which where the primary forces of Africa from 40 to 42 you believe they should not arrive? As I said on this issue I do not mind if they send a single corps or infantry to account for these forces but I dont think the Allies should be forced to defend Eygpt short most of its army with absolutely no control of supply which allows unlimited Axis forces to oppose them. Remember they already dont have the air they had there you cant expect them to hold verses potentially the entire Axis army without even having what they had in the war.

Soviet Union Siberian Transfer was critical. Not sure why someone would deny the equivelent of 2 corps of armor and 4 of infantry with a hoard of artillery. These forces where the forces used in 42 to defend the Soviet Union.

I recommend you do get on you soapbox and demand the forces not be eliminated from there historical placement. I would fight just as hard for the Axis if they where missing armies.

You cant have balance if you do not provide historical forces. You cant hold Russia without what they had in the real war they barely survived now you want them to do it with significant less and it wont happen verses a comptetent player.

AI is not even near as important as correctly balancing the game so it is fun and playable for both sides. Human vs Human play will be impossible without this correction.

No not at all. I think if the programmers add one type, be it Siberian reinforcements or whatever, the others should not be shortchanged. Personally I think the Siberians should be in there but maybe not as a set of troops(ie X corps of inf and Y corps of Armor, with experience stars!) I'm looking at something more like a large random supply dump between Oct-Jan. Gives a bit of randomness to the whole thing. let me choose what I build. After all, If I want history to repeat itself I'll just read a book.

[targul]

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

ORIGINAL: targul

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I dont think having units just show up since it happened in reality is the answer. Then you have to start doing that for all participants.When do you stop with these one off reinforcement surges? If the devs kow-tow to the "Siberia" crowd, I know full well and good I'm getting on my rickety soapbox and screaming for Anders Polish Corps to show up for the British as a reinforcement. And so on.

Maybe a one time point dump between nov and jan of the 1st winter might be an answer. I just don't know.

So do you somehow believe the Soviets and African forces should be shorted because it is too easy to give reinforcements. As for the Polish, New Zealand, Aussies, South African, and Indians which where the primary forces of Africa from 40 to 42 you believe they should not arrive? As I said on this issue I do not mind if they send a single corps or infantry to account for these forces but I dont think the Allies should be forced to defend Eygpt short most of its army with absolutely no control of supply which allows unlimited Axis forces to oppose them. Remember they already dont have the air they had there you cant expect them to hold verses potentially the entire Axis army without even having what they had in the war.

Soviet Union Siberian Transfer was critical. Not sure why someone would deny the equivelent of 2 corps of armor and 4 of infantry with a hoard of artillery. These forces where the forces used in 42 to defend the Soviet Union.

I recommend you do get on you soapbox and demand the forces not be eliminated from there historical placement. I would fight just as hard for the Axis if they where missing armies.

You cant have balance if you do not provide historical forces. You cant hold Russia without what they had in the real war they barely survived now you want them to do it with significant less and it wont happen verses a comptetent player.

AI is not even near as important as correctly balancing the game so it is fun and playable for both sides. Human vs Human play will be impossible without this correction.

No not at all. I think if the programmers add one type, be it Siberian reinforcements or whatever, the others should not be shortchanged. Personally I think the Siberians should be in there but maybe not as a set of troops(ie X corps of inf and Y corps of Armor, with experience stars!) I'm looking at something more like a large random supply dump between Oct-Jan. Gives a bit of randomness to the whole thing. let me choose what I build. After all, If I want history to repeat itself I'll just read a book.

That would certainly satisfy me. I just want the game to have a historic bases. I dont mind some shifting ideas of how to do that.

If fact since no one else does it that way I would really like to try that.

[Hard Sarge]

I think there may be a point of view issue here

what about the manpower numbers the USSR gets ? or the production numbers ?

are not these to show the replacements they should get, and allow you to build the replacements when and where you should be getting them ?, instead of trucking or railing them in ??

when I played as the Allies, I never felt like I was being shortchanged as the Russian

you get a pretty good Production base, and massive manpower numbers, and each time one of the Convoys pulls into port, it is time to party

I think the real hassle may be the Russian is not able to set his defence line until the war starts, and then his main line is already broken, if the player then tries to hold or plug the line, he is just tossing away troops for nothing and he is never able to build up a 2nd or 3rd line, and then it looks like he didn't get the troops he needed

besides, the human Allies player job is to slow down the GE long enough, that they can't begin the attack in the East on time (which of course, maybe easier said then done)

[targul]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think there may be a point of view issue here

what about the manpower numbers the USSR gets ? or the production numbers ?

are not these to show the replacements they should get, and allow you to build the replacements when and where you should be getting them ?, instead of trucking or railing them in ??

when I played as the Allies, I never felt like I was being shortchanged as the Russian

you get a pretty good Production base, and massive manpower numbers, and each time one of the Convoys pulls into port, it is time to party

I think the real hassle may be the Russian is not able to set his defence line until the war starts, and then his main line is already broken, if the player then tries to hold or plug the line, he is just tossing away troops for nothing and he is never able to build up a 2nd or 3rd line, and then it looks like he didn't get the troops he needed

besides, the human Allies player job is to slow down the GE long enough, that they can't begin the attack in the East on time (which of course, maybe easier said then done)

Setup is a hassle but no the real problem is the lack of replacements in the Winter of 41/42 that actually arrived are simply not in the game. If they were in some form added to your forces during that period it would give that needed push to keep the Soviets from being destroyed.

Without those fresh troops the army is still using troops they started with at war start. There is very little opertunity to build new units as the German is pounding you everywhere and to put up even a meager defense you must restore those front line units or they will disappear.

Many say just run the Russians did. Well running works a little but panzers are fast and foot soldiers not so those panzer will catch you and destroy you in a single hit especially if you are running since you are not entrenched.

Those troops from Siberia give the Axis that little umph needed to get through the toughest period of the war and aids in then establishing a line to defend.

[Sweeper]

ORIGINAL: targul


That would certainly satisfy me. I just want the game to have a historic bases. I dont mind some shifting ideas of how to do that.

If fact since no one else does it that way I would really like to try that.

Well the problem is Targul, that your opinion lack all sort of historical base.

[targul]

ORIGINAL: Sweeper

ORIGINAL: targul


That would certainly satisfy me. I just want the game to have a historic bases. I dont mind some shifting ideas of how to do that.

If fact since no one else does it that way I would really like to try that.

Well the problem is Targul, that your opinion lack all sort of historical base.

I agree with you but your complaint stemmed from thinking that the Siberian reinforcement was a myth.

It was not a myth and those troop are sincerly needed but since this is a game if they wish to mod in those replacements in another manner I dont care as long as they show up. Variances in timing and optional things happening are fun. I would not even mind if sometimes they didnt arrive as long as a message came that an attack by the Japanese is still expected. Options are okay long as they are possibilities but to simply ignore things because someone thinks they are a myth is just silly.

Yes we did land on the Moon. Yes there have been space flights. Yes there was actually a holocast. Yes the world really is round not square. No these are not myths either.

[Hard Sarge]

way can't you just build the replacements like it is planned ? why do they need to give them to you ?

why don't we then give the GE all the SS Armor Divs they should get later on in the war, they are going to need them too, while we at it, what about the increase in the LW, they need that too

[IrishGuards]

Playing against the computer is 1 thing .. Against a very capable human opponent ..
Is quite another .. [;)]

The comp is not able to counter any serious attack that has any kind of depth .. even on the best setting ..
And that is exactly what people are talking about here .. An ability to counter attacks by individuals who play strategy and counter strategies, and by wargamers who are able to not just judge odds .. but may attack in such a fashion to ensure success, in the European theater.

If a player is suffeciently limited in any number of categories .. units .. resources .. reinforcements .. especially of experienced troops .. and leaders for that matter.
Then any decent gamer can and will exploit these inherent weaknesses and wreak havoc .. not just on a limited tactical scale .. but on a game scale .. This is not SC .. [:D]

I seriously believe the russians need a better base than they have been given. I know at least 3 very competent gamers who I have played personally .. they speak the truth ..
And because of this my next post will be
Russian DoW .. Including OOB ..
IDG

[Fred98]

Probably I cant imagine how they missed the reinforcements

In beta testing, probably no game goes long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
-

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

way can't you just build the replacements like it is planned ? why do they need to give them to you ?

why don't we then give the GE all the SS Armor Divs they should get later on in the war, they are going to need them too, while we at it, what about the increase in the LW, they need that too

Well for one thing I don't believe the Soviets get enough supply points at the beginning. Sure manpower is nice but essentialy useless without supply to build things

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: targul


The Siberian Transfer is not a myth. Those forces where much larger then a division. They where larger then a corps. There where 50,000 infantry combat veterans,

The Siberian forces almost certainly included few combat veterans - the war vs Japan was May-September 1939....Soviet conscription was for 2 years - the vast majority of troops who had fought in those battles had been released to reserves. when they were recalled to the colours it was not to their original divisions - it was as replacements.

1000 T34 new tanks

You're joking right??

the Soviets have barely BUILT 1000 T34's by Barbarossa, and NONE of these were in service in the Far East or Siberia in June 1941. they built another 1900 or so until the end of 1941 - again they all went west. (see http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons.htm)

any tanks coming ffrom Siberia were the older models - probably mostly T-26's since hte far east forces had about 3500 tanks in June 41, of which about 2200 were T26's (see http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weap ... e01_41.htm)

with there support troops and 1000 fresh air with men transferred from Siberia again with there support. It was specifically these forces winter trained that attacked at Moscow and broke the siege in 41. Do you believe that 1000 tanks is not equivelent to at least a corps of armor? Do you think 1000 aircraft is less then a corps of fighters or bombers? How about 50000 troops is that merly a division?

50,000 men is barely a garrison unit in CEAW - there were over 1 million men per side at the battle for Moscow - probably 5-6 "Corps" each. 50,000 is a useful addition, but not a vast amount.

This was a deciding factor at Moscow according to Zurkof and these and more forces where used to defend throughout 42.

no they were not. According to Zhukov it was reserves that were the deciding factor, not specifically siberians. The majority of the Siberians had already been committed piecemeal, and the reserves used to attack outside Moscow were "standard" Soviet trops. sure they were equipped for winter warfare, and better trained than most of the troops hurriedly raised over hte previous 6 months.

But they were not freshly shipped in from Siberia.

No these men and equipment where not myths but real men who fought in some of the most horrendous battles of the war.

No they were not myths - but they were not Siberians either - THAT is the myth.

[Warfare1]

I think we should be careful about everything that Zhukov writes about in his memoirs.

Zhukov wrote his book in 1964 and published it in 1969. This, at a time when the USSR was still under the heavy dictatorship of the Communist Party, of which Zhukov was a prominent member.

As such, Zhukov's book was heavily censored by Soviet authorities on numerous occasions during its 10 printings. It was last printed in 1990.

Due to this heavy censorship we may never truly know the exact extent of true or fabricated information in this book. No doubt Zhukov would want to make himself look good; no doubt the Communist Party would want certain facts and information to be told the way it would like them to be told.

Here are just a few examples of why we should be more critical of Zhukov's book:

1) Zhukov professes great faith in communism: "I have forgotten many things, but I will remember the day I joined the Party as long as I live. Since then I have tried to suit all my thoughts, aspirations and actions to the demands made of a Party member."

Yet surely someone who had witnessed Stalin's purges of the 1930s, to which many of Zhukov's colleagues fell victim, or who had himself been prey to the petty machinations of the Party leadership after the war, would have a more nuanced view of the Soviet political system?

2) Until the 1990 edition was published, Zhukov's book was subject to myriad revisions by the Soviet censors, including one notorious passage where Zhukov was persuaded to write that he had "wanted to consult" with Leonid Brezhnev (who was the Soviet leader when the first edition of Zhukov's memoirs came out in 1969) during a visit to the North Caucasian Front in 1943, when Brezhnev was a lowly political officer.

3) Zhukov Misrepresents Information and Operations: Operation Mars was a costly failure which in his memoirs Zhukov misrepresented as a diversion to prevent German Army Group Center from assisting their comrades at Stalingrad rather than a major offensive in its own right.

In his recent book, Zhukov's Greatest Defeat, David Glantz exposes Zhukov's falsification and recounts in detail the Mars disaster, which had long been covered up by official Soviet sources.

According to John Erickson, the leading historian of Stalingrad, "the full significance of Stalingrad…cannot be grasped without understanding the role of Operation Mars," which was "deliberately misrepresented by Zhukov himself" and is now the subject of "Glantz's indispensable account."


SOURCES:

http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stori ... 2/105.html

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/142

http://www.russiablog.org/2007/04/did_u ... he_war.php

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-68952101.html

[Warfare1]

We should not forget that in addition to the 2,900 T-34s that were built up to late 1941, the Soviets also built 1,600 heavy KV1s and KV2s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_arm ... rld_War_II


Several tank factories had been re-located in the Ural Mountains after the Germans invaded the USSR. These were located near the western edges of Siberia, which produced a number of different tanks including the T-34.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_So ... _factories

[targul]

"Stalin remembered the fierce fighting in Mongolia as well. Even as he summoned 1,000 tanks and 1,200 warplanes from Soviet Far Eastern forces to battle the German invaders who were making spectacular gains, 19 reserve divisions, 1,200 tanks and some 1,000 aircraft remained in Mongolia to confront the Japanese."  Military History Magazine from Historynet.com
 
No SMK I am quite serious 1000 tanks.  This was a serious military force.  Wiki also said these tanks where fresh T34's.  Now you may not like this but that is what the authors say.  This is also included in the The World at War AMC  TV documentary.
 
I know this myth was just designed to confuse wargamers and that you have found the truth.  But the above quotes from magazines, internet sources and TV documentaries and many different publications lead me to believe there is a possibilty you are wrong.  Otherwise every wargame I and many of us have played has placed those mythical reinforcements in there games.  And even though SPI always listed there sources for such troops they were wrong also because you are right.  You have found the great hoax pulled over the world.  It surprises me that Siberian transfer is recognized by every source I find and that when I click on your sources I find those sites are closed.
 
From 1939-43 34,780 T34 Tanks were produced.  So to get 1000 while coming through the Urals would not be that difficult since one of the major T34 Factories was located there and Stalin ordered it.
 

[Dave Ferguson]

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

3) Zhukov Misrepresents Information and Operations: Operation Mars was a costly failure which in his memoirs Zhukov misrepresented as a diversion to prevent German Army Group Center from assisting their comrades at Stalingrad rather than a major offensive in its own right.

In his recent book, Zhukov's Greatest Defeat, David Glantz exposes Zhukov's falsification and recounts in detail the Mars disaster, which had long been covered up by official Soviet sources.

for those who don't know Operation Mars had more soviet tanks, guns, planes and men than the Uranus operation at Stalingrad, yet it was a costly disaster.

[IrishGuards]

All I can say is I am really glad that people are having this quaint little discussion .. [:'(]
I will continue to send these tankies to the Allmighty .. no matter what type they are .. [:D]
IDG is massing the Rumanians and Hungarians, sending my Mech shock corps into the furious battles that rage .. [8|]
Oh and I especially like the fact that I don't have to get these freakin books out .. they are quite heavy, and at the bottom of the crawlspace ... [X(]
I remember the days when to get from 1 side of the room to another .. I couldn't see the floor .. Was just impossible not to step on a layer of books .. magazines .. games .. well you get the picture .. the big picture I hope ... [&o]
Besides I would rather concentrate on my pointy units .. [;)]
I usually find it best to read multiple accounts .. you wind up doing this anyway to give the big picture ... [:'(]
IDG

[Hard Sarge]

my hassle with this talk, is I think the game covers what they want to add, but nobody is talking about all the stuff that is wrong with the basic OOB for the start of the game

where is the English Airpower ? 1 fighter and 1 bomber ? (which to be fair, I think the bomber should not be there, BC at this time was pretty much the same as the LW Bombers, if the LW is stuck with Tac Bombers, so should the GB

where is the French Army ?

where is the Russian Army, where is the Russian Airforce (okay, most of it got knocked out in the first week, but it was still huge)

oh well, don't think it matters, think there are reasons for the size of the Armies in the game