Super Dreadnought CV's ..

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: IrishDragoonGuards

How can you even begin to believe that CV's are not different from land based air ...
This means the UK alone has abundantly more Air than Ger at the start of the game ..
add in the Poles and the French and you have on board .. 6 Allied Air to 3 Axis ..
I nay think so .. [:-]

Well...I always feel very sorry for jerry, but I can't let pity for poor jerry ruin my gamey life. So in a game that simulates a force where 11 torpedo planes (the much-despised Swordfish at that) can knock out half the BBs in a navy...you have to allow for the possibility that carrier planes can do so serious damage, contemptable though they may be.

I would be happy if the whole level of the game were pushed up a few notches in terms of sophistication so that the RN can be reasonably invincible without the ability to launch airstrikes deep into the continent, but given the very high level of abstraction, CVs are no more strange than having the entire French navy vanish when France falls or only one Destroyer for the RN and no convoy escorts built into the convoys.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the Royal Navy got over 900 Avengers (used in the Atlantic, Med and Pto)

they also got 252 Hellcat Is, and 930 Hellcat IIs

for the F4u, they got 95 Corsair Is, 510 IIs, 430 IIIs and 977 IVs

the first use in the ETO (also first use off of a CV) was in April 44 when they went after the Tirpitz

(19 FAA squadrons used the F4u)

most of the use is more known from the PTO, but they were also based and used in ETO

the FAA also used the Marlet

most combat reports on the Hellcat, were in the Med/South of France and off of Norway

I thought most of the mission for the CVs during Touch was to transport P-40s, took off from the CVs and landed on the Captured French Airfields

Wow...I had no idea the FAA had so many Hellcats. In Torch the Wildcat was the plane used to fly air cover off the carriers for the first few days.

So how did the Hellcat do against 109s and such?

[Hard Sarge]

I didn't find much on what kinds of kills the FAA had with there Cats, only seen they had like 52 kills confirmed for the Cats

[IrishGuards]

Go for your Air Tech .. Once the Super Dreadnought Cv's get a wee bit of Ftr, Tac and Strat labs .. they just sit in the port of Liverpool and strat bomb France ..
Super Dreadnought Heavy Bomber Cv's .. [:-]
IDG

[targul]

Yep, way off historically but them Dreadnaught CV's certainly own France. Africa and Italy.  As we play we learn of the additional flaws in the game.  Least it means you dont need those silly Strategic Bombers just work on Carriers America and England and take over the world.  Now of course the Axis player can build to stop them as long as he is willing to allow Russia Super Heavy Tanks by 42. 
 
Could be the techs are too easy.  Na, we all saw those jets flying around in 1941.  Too many labs seems to be the problem.  Also allowing two techs to be at 5 while the others arent worked on at all doesnt help.  Even out the techs across the board and keep the labs down would control these early game breakers.
 
I would think it best 5 labs available to each major with an additional lab once each six months after they are active.  Do not allow the unlimited building in a field but control it so that you see a more realistic example of WWII.  I know many of you hate anything with realism but it would in the case also add to playability.

[firepowerjohan]

From my latest games in TcpIP, starting in 1939 when being in 1943 we both realised (me and Vypuero) that we would on average be no way near the historical tech levels in 1944. I do not know how you do it, but I found a problem to get to the higher techs especially with USSR who have very little labs until late 1941.

I do not inderstand either how carrier would outcompete Strategic Bomber. Strategic bomber has strategic attack = 8 on max tech level while carrier has strategic attack = 1, and on no tech strat bomber has 4 while carrier has 0.

If you compare the striking of units, strategic bomber is not meant to do that so carrier is better. Rather compare the carrier with a tactical bomber instead.

So, fighter is better than carrier in Dog Fight, Tactical Bomber is better than Carrier in striking units, Strategic bomber is better than Carrier at striking production and Battleship is better than Carrier in naval combat. Carrier is just an all around unit but can be countered with fighters.

[Dave Ferguson]

What complicates matters is that if the strategic targets are occupied by ground troops a successful carrier strike will also impact on the cities production value.
 
So it seems the best advice is NOT to occupy production centres????
 
Dave

[firepowerjohan]

The best advice is that you counter the carriers with fighters [;)]
In my recent TcpIP game I managed to stall Axis in Africa thanks to Axis having only one Tactical Bomber and I had 2 carriers there pounding Axis. Had Axis sent a figher there, I would have been a position of high cost and lose precious time moving back to port, repair and then move front again.

[Vypuero]

Carriers are also vulnerable to subs.  Take some notches off the carriers with fighter cover, then sneak up some subs and sink yourselves some expensive carriers.

[Hard Sarge]

at times, I am not sure you guys have even played your own game

what is being said is, the CVs park out of range of Axis fighters, hide in port and then plink away at France

sneak in with a sub ? when it is surrounded by DDs and BBs ?

which firepower has a point that they are not as good as a basic unit is, but then again, I have not seen many level 18 fighters or Strat Bombers, but have seen lots of level 18 CVs (but seeing that CVs gain level though Naval labs and Airforce labs, they tend to gain levels faster then "basic" units)


(out in the open, in a running sub battle, yea, you can sneak in and sink a CV or two (if you have enough subs to have a running sub battle)

[firepowerjohan]

Sub counter can only be used in some occasions. Still, the easiest way is just to intercept with a fighter. If carriers attacks Paris you only need to be in range of Paris in order to intercept and navy cost more to reinforce than air and ground. Try setting this up in hotseat and test see how long you can afford it as Allies.

But if unopposed then carriers but also strategic bombers and ships can put some strain on enemy but that is how it should be else you could not getting any pay off on building those units [:)]

Carriers should not advance any faster than fighter but in fact is harder to get. You need both air labs and navy labs to get carriers to their max level, while you only need air labs to get fighters to their max tech. Fighters beat Carriers when both are unteched as well as when both are max teched.

[Hard Sarge]

Well, maybe you just playing humans that are not too swift [:-]

the AI at least knows to buy labs, and since the English are not doing much in the game, I think the English AI tends to build up labs faster then the player does

sure, I would agree with you, if all the other side was doing is sending in CV attacks, but it also has it's own fighters and bombers

and when the AI fighters are level 12-14 and his CV is level 18 and your fighters are level 8, have fun trying to pick off any of his "air cover"

(I normally have at least 4 or 5 labs in air, with Dogfight as there main focus, would go higher, but the Axis needs ground and armor labs too)

[IrishGuards]

CV's gain experience at around double the pace of other units on board ..
You hit em and they just get better ... then they are not vulnerable to air attacks at all ...
Try sending a german Tac at a CV with a few of those pretty little ensigns ...
They go in at 0:2 .. as I have said before .. Ftr's do more damage to CV's than Tac ..
IDG

[Hard Sarge]

as IDG says, they look to gain faster then other units, by what you can see on the map and with out being able to see the number of labs the AI is using, it is HARD to tell if it is just out buying you for labs or if they gain levels faster

but in my games, I have never seen a AI CV stay anywhere close to my fighters in Levels

[firepowerjohan]

No unit gain experience faster than any others, but Dog Fights generate more experience. It will be reduced from 20 experience points to 15 experience points for the patch.

[Vypuero]

Fighters can cover the units in France, when the carriers attack they are intercepted. If they surround them with DDs, have the subs destroy the convoys.

[firepowerjohan]

The counter in the west with bombardment and early D-Day is quite realistic also. What we see in many games is that Axis save some bucks by not using subs and not doing Battle of Britain and instead throw everything on eastern front. This means USSR is in more trouble than historically unless countered. When more ppl learn that Allies can bomb France to pieces then Axis players will be forced to spend more on air and not be as strong in Russia. This would create a more historical east front battle also. If Axis neglect air research, sub research and just throw everything on infantry and armour then the game needs a natural counter to this because USSR cannot win the whole war by themselves.

Of course it is also a choice for the player, do I stall Allies in the west as long as possible (hence D-Day come very late) or do I gamble and throw all in on the east front risking Allied counter offensive in the west? Perhaps I do something in between? The trick in the game is to find out ASAP what the other player is focusing on so that you can produce the necessary counter weapons. if Axis is trying to bomb Britain to pieces in the west, Allies wont need a 2nd Strategic Bomber instead they need every single penny into AA tech or fighters. If Axis is throwing all-in east, the Allies wont need to buy destroyers. Decisions, decisions and FoW... [8D]

[IrishGuards]

With all due respect I think you are missing the point guys. With the imbalance of Ftr's or lets just say Air units in the Allies hands here is the situation.
OOB .. 1939 .. before Germany even begins they are below par ... in a number of ways ..

Allies ..
3 Ftr .. UK .. FR .. Poles
Strat UK
2 CV's ... UK

Axis ..
2 Ftr
1 Tac

So .. 1st turn ..
Germans take damage on there ftr .. because the Polish Ftr .. and for that matter the French Ftr are equal to the German Ftr's ... I dont think this is correct for 2 reasons ..
If we assume what Vypuero says the Polish had 600 Air .. That means all things being equal there are only 1800 German air on board ... This is seriously low ...

OK .. Allies .. They send there air to attack German units ... This means they have 3 air to soak off 2 ger ftr ... so even if the germans build a ftr .. necessary of course ... they are only on par with Allied land based air ... So after the Allies have injured the Axis air and germany has to spend there limited PP to repair .. If they don't then the Cv's come in and damage the german air even worse ... It is based on initiative ..

If this is the result then the Germans will never be able to use there air offensively as was realistic in all operations .. attrition will limit there use to the germans .. and while they intercept allied air .. no choice here as the game system dictates ... the CV's do not intercept .. unless they are attacked ..

If the Allies are able to use there 5 air units in this way I find it very difficult to rationalize why land based german ftr's are taking huge damage from CV based air ... Just not balanced at all ...
IDG

[Vypuero]

There were more like 2,400 air - my opinion was always that Germany should get 2 bombers, not 1, and my scenario will reflect that - but did we not just go through people telling us the allies cannot win?
 
The French & Polish fighters have org 1, UK org 2, and germans org 3 - the germans are better.
The Polish fighter will be eliminated
The French can't afford to reinforce their fighter
when Italy enters, they get an additional Tac bomber
The UK has to send air - carrier or something, to help in Med or they lose it

[firepowerjohan]

Polish on org L1, oh my god? [&:]
Maybe Poland should be org L0 since they are causing some losses for Germany.
Vypuero, I think he meant in early 1940 before Italy join but regardless it is the fighters and carriers that will decide air superiority anyway so a tac bomber wont matter.