Logistics Officer needed

[grumpyman]

I am in late June of 42 and would like to try an offensive on buna in November. The last time I tried the long campaign Buna was my downfall. I chewed up half of my forces failing to take Buna. In the current game I am fairing well. I have discovered that well supplied light forces are better than adequately supplied large forces. At Port Moresby Japanese air is chewing itsself up and can not even any airfield, port, or ground hits. (Ok, they did one airfield hit in early june[:D]). The Japanese also thinks its a good idea to send BBs to Buna to soak up torpedo hits from my beauforts (Avg experience 85). I do not want to ruin a good thing by screwing up an offensive again. Last campaign I tried sending forces overland from PM to Buna and they got stuck at 54,91. I know now it was because of fatigue and morale. This time I plan to send only the 30the Aus Brigade and perhaps AUSI Corps HQ. I then plan to wait at 54,91 for supplies to build up enough to attack buna. I will invade by sea with the 32nd Inf div and 7th Aus div plus an Art unit and tank brigade. My problem is trying to figure out if PM can supply the overland troops. Reading the manual it is hard to figure out except to know excess supply at PM can go overland for supply. Currently I have 40000 supply in PM with a size 5 port, 6 airfield, and 6 fortification. All of these are about to flip one higher. My forces are very light in PM. Besides the 30th Brigade, which will make the overland trip and AUSI Corps. I only have Southwest HQ. PM defense brigade, engineers and air. All total including the troops going overland PM needs 6000 supply. The forces going overland need 350. How can I calculate what I need?

[dtravel]

Well, let's see, two to three months for the overland units to march from Port Moresby to Buna.  Sitting in a hex outside a base, disruption and fatigue recovery are s...l...o...w and won't get below about 10/35.  Assume another one to two months for even that much recovery.  So you should be able to launch an overland attack with exhausted troops just around New Years.  [;)]
 
Oh, and overland supply.  Yes, well, assuming that the G2 at Port Moresby even bothers sending supplies, he'll only do it two days out of three (not exaggerating here, a programmer let it slip some time back that supplies only move two turns out of three by design) and 90% of it will be used up delivering the remaining 10% (trails are very poor supply routes).  So, theoretically possible but really not recommended. 
 
Also, supplies won't "build up" in a non-base hex or a base hex where the base is owned by the opposing side.  The units will draw what they need but they won't draw extra supplies for combat use later.  So you would have to march them into the Buna hex, then wait for a trickle of supplies to reach them overland.  The exception to this is if ships unload supplies in to the hex the units are in.  In that case the units will absorb the supplies and keep them "in" the unit until such time as they are in a friendly base hex (either by moving to one or capturing one), at which point they promptly drop the excess supplies in to the base's inventory.
 
You really are better off doing an amphibious assault on Buna rather than an overland march, both to avoid the wearing down of your troops from the march itself and the better supply chain.

[grumpyman]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Well, let's see, two to three months for the overland units to march from Port Moresby to Buna.  Sitting in a hex outside a base, disruption and fatigue recovery are s...l...o...w and won't get below about 10/35.  Assume another one to two months for even that much recovery.  So you should be able to launch an overland attack with exhausted troops just around New Years.  [;)]

Oh, and overland supply.  Yes, well, assuming that the G2 at Port Moresby even bothers sending supplies, he'll only do it two days out of three (not exaggerating here, a programmer let it slip some time back that supplies only move two turns out of three by design) and 90% of it will be used up delivering the remaining 10% (trails are very poor supply routes).  So, theoretically possible but really not recommended. 

Also, supplies won't "build up" in a non-base hex or a base hex where the base is owned by the opposing side.  The units will draw what they need but they won't draw extra supplies for combat use later.  So you would have to march them into the Buna hex, then wait for a trickle of supplies to reach them overland.  The exception to this is if ships unload supplies in to the hex the units are in.  In that case the units will absorb the supplies and keep them "in" the unit until such time as they are in a friendly base hex (either by moving to one or capturing one), at which point they promptly drop the excess supplies in to the base's inventory.

You really are better off doing an amphibious assault on Buna rather than an overland march, both to avoid the wearing down of your troops from the march itself and the better supply chain.

Well looks like the overland phase is out. Right now my recon shows roughly 12,000 troops and 66 guns at buna. I would bet at least triple that are really there. I would not be surprised if 50,000. I am going to move some medium range bomber out of there soon (they need the rest), then move more B-17 in to bomb the L out of buna for a month or two.[:D]

[Gibbons]

Hey G.

I'd suggest that you just try things sometimes as you seem to be doing and see what happens. Chalk up the result to fog of war. If you have air superiority at PM then you should be bombing and strafing the hell out of everything in sight. Attrit the Japs in every way you can before landing troops. If good recon tells you Buna doesn't have alot of CD and your risk from LBA bombers is low send a BB/CA fleet to bombard it over and over.

I'm still wondering why your B-17 crews aren't doing their job!


Gibbons

[grumpyman]

ORIGINAL: Gibbons

I'm still wondering why your B-17 crews aren't doing their job!


Gibbons

I have a B-17 group in there doing naval attacks. It has mostly been hitting shipping I am though going to sent it to cairns soon since its fatigue is rising. I have several air units I am swapping in and out the beaufort squadron is in townsville getting a rest. I swapped in a some inexperienced B-25s to replace it. They got to get that experience sometime. I have three carrier TFs in noumea, with one CV a piece. I sent it up from time to time to raid when the Japanese BBs and CA get. The BBs were taking a lot of torps from the beauforts 5 torps in kirashima, three BBs have taken at least 3 torps not to mentions bomb hits in the tens. Nothing was shown up as sunk. The funny thing is one CA sunk on the combat animation screen but does not show up on the sunk list. Does this game's fog of war show false hits and sinking? If it did I guess it would be realistic.

EDIT: I just went to the manual, sinkings may not show up for 60 days.

[saj42]

If you were to continue with an overlamd march then air drop supplies using those Dakotas and C-47s (that are probably sitting in the rear [:D]).
As for the amphib landing, as you know, target the port with your LBA to destroy the CD guns and supply for at least 2 weeks before going in.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Tallyho!

If you were to continue with an overlamd march then air drop supplies using those Dakotas and C-47s (that are probably sitting in the rear [:D]).
As for the amphib landing, as you know, target the port with your LBA to destroy the CD guns and supply for at least 2 weeks before going in.

Just pointing out that there is some borkishness present in the air supply routine that prevents supplies being delivered to friendly LCUs in a hex with enemy LCUs present, ever.

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Well, let's see, two to three months for the overland units to march from Port Moresby to Buna. Sitting in a hex outside a base, disruption and fatigue recovery are s...l...o...w and won't get below about 10/35. Assume another one to two months for even that much recovery. So you should be able to launch an overland attack with exhausted troops just around New Years.

10/35 isn't so bad. I certainly wouldn't call it exhausted. Chances are the IJ forces at Buna aren't any better off.

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Oh, and overland supply. Yes, well, assuming that the G2 at Port Moresby even bothers sending supplies, he'll only do it two days out of three (not exaggerating here, a programmer let it slip some time back that supplies only move two turns out of three by design) and 90% of it will be used up delivering the remaining 10% (trails are very poor supply routes). So, theoretically possible but really not recommended.

No, supply over trails is not the best. It is better than through the jungle though!

You can draw supplies from up to three hexes away along a trail. Each trail hex the supplies move through will consume 25% of the supplies. So should your LCUs three hexes distant along a trail draw say 1200 supplies from the stocks at PM, only 300 will arrive. Yes, this is expensive, but it also works. If you have control of the sea, you can prevent the IJ forces at Buna from getting any supplies at all, since theirs pretty much have to be shipped in.

If your LCUs at the end of such a supply LOC do an assault, their supply will go into the red the next turn. It will take a few turns to build back up (assuming you have plenty of supply at PM), but by the time you recover sufficiently from disruption and fatigue to attack again, your supply will probably be good too.

Take along an artillery unit if you have one handy. Bombarding with an artillery unit in between attacks seems to have a sort of "rain dance" effect, causing supplies to flow to all the LCUs in that hex.

Read 14.3 Ground unit supply.

[Yakface]

I've done it in reverse in a PBEM game- 3 Japanese divisions + HQ from Buna to Port Moresby. Irrelevants analysis is spot on.....not ideal way to take PM but certainly doable. It took 3 months to capture the base (including travel time). Keeping the PM airfiled closed with bombers from a well developed airfield at Lae was a must and a bombardment with 3 BB's sealed the deal. Sending barges round with some supply certainly helped keep the units topped up, but they pulled supply from Buna reasonably well.

I think estimates of 90% supply lost are a bit pessimistic. IIRC someone did some testing a few months ago and found that the supply lost worked out at length of supply chain divided by 5, which would mean only 10% loss for PM to Buna. Frequency of supply was good as well.

[Yakface]

Found the test. It was done by VSWG, mainly aimed at oil/resources, but there is a row for supply and even does a tet specifically for PM to Buna.

tm.asp?m=1349415


My bad - the supply was produced by the HI rather than transferred.....test only applies to resource/oil transfer

[KPAX]

On Buna, there is always the possibility to bomb the crap out of it forever and bypass it.  Allies did that in Rabual.  Plus a GREAT training ground for all those pilots coming into the Pacific.
 
Also, may want to take that base on the Southern tip, expand it and use the airfield as well.
 
Just an alternative thought.

[BrucePowers]

I would not go overland. That is way too much time.

My opponent went overland to Akyab in India. I had plenty of time to sealift reinforcements from Ceylon and India. After 2 months of trying he headed back to Rangoon.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

I would not go overland. That is way too much time.

It can be the best way sometimes. Buna/PM is a good example. It can be tough to mount an amphib assault around the corner of PNG. Tough for either side. Going cross country can provide a strategic threat that you would be unable to project using sea power alone. And whether it succeeds or not, it prevents the other guy from doing it to you, and it gives him one more thing to worry about.

[grumpyman]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Read 14.3 Ground unit supply.

I read section 9 and 14 before posting. Either my reading comprehension needs work (very likely) or there is some information lacking in the manual. To be more specific, any many times as I have read 14.3 I am fuzzy as to when to use the 100 or 900 as the value to subtract from. I have interpreted this as if you want to move to a spot use 900 to calculate if you can move there and 100 to figure if can be supplied once you there.
In my case going from PM to 54, 91. If I interpret the rules correctly I can move to there
(900 - (50 + 25)) and be supplied there (100 (50 + 25)). As to the move to Buna it is
(900 - (50 + 25 + 50 +25)) (I am leaving out the fatigue and morale factor because I do not want my head to explode) I can move to Buna. I can not be supplied at buna because (100 (50 + 25 + 50 + 25)) won't let and Buna is an enemy occupied base.

All this means, if I am interpreting things right and I amy not be, is one I get to Buna I must make do with the supplies I have with me. What I can not find in the manual, and I may be missing something, is much supply will get to me when I am at 54,91. The only thing I know is that it will be greatly reduced. Now I am going to take an asprin.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: grumpyman

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Read 14.3 Ground unit supply.

I am fuzzy as to when to use the 100 or 900 as the value to subtract from. I have interpreted this as if you want to move to a spot use 900 to calculate if you can move there and 100 to figure if can be supplied once you there.

Right

In my case going from PM to 54, 91. If I interpret the rules correctly I can move to there (900 - (50 + 25)) and be supplied there (100 (50 + 25)). As to the move to Buna it is
(900 - (50 + 25 + 50 +25)) (I am leaving out the fatigue and morale factor because I do not want my head to explode) I can move to Buna. I can not be supplied at buna because (100 (50 + 25 + 50 + 25)) won't let and Buna is an enemy occupied base.

You're thinking too hard. You don't really have to consider whether you can move someplace or not. 900 supply movement points is 18 hexes cross country. There is almost nowhere on the map where you can even trace 18 hexes cross country without doubling back or hitting a road.

All this means, if I am interpreting things right and I amy not be, is one I get to Buna I must make do with the supplies I have with me. What I can not find in the manual, and I may be missing something, is much supply will get to me when I am at 54,91. The only thing I know is that it will be greatly reduced. Now I am going to take an asprin.

I'm not really sure about your calculations. Stock, right? I can't help you there cause I'm using ABs map. But I believe you can draw supply from PM to Buna, regardless of whether Buna is enemy controlled. I don't see that that is a factor in drawing supply. Obviously, you can't trace supply through a hex with an enemy ZOC, but you can for sure trace supply into such a hex. Unless on the map you are using PM is 4 or more hexes away down a trail, you can draw supplies from PM.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: grumpyman

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Read 14.3 Ground unit supply.

I read section 9 and 14 before posting. Either my reading comprehension needs work (very likely) or there is some information lacking in the manual. To be more specific, any many times as I have read 14.3 I am fuzzy as to when to use the 100 or 900 as the value to subtract from. I have interpreted this as if you want to move to a spot use 900 to calculate if you can move there and 100 to figure if can be supplied once you there.
In my case going from PM to 54, 91. If I interpret the rules correctly I can move to there
(900 - (50 + 25)) and be supplied there (100 (50 + 25)). As to the move to Buna it is
(900 - (50 + 25 + 50 +25)) (I am leaving out the fatigue and morale factor because I do not want my head to explode) I can move to Buna. I can not be supplied at buna because (100 (50 + 25 + 50 + 25)) won't let and Buna is an enemy occupied base.

Close, but PM & Buna are separated by 2 trail hexes on the stock map. So it works out to be 100 - (25+25) = 50. You can draw supply at Buna.

All this means, if I am interpreting things right and I amy not be, is one I get to Buna I must make do with the supplies I have with me. What I can not find in the manual, and I may be missing something, is much supply will get to me when I am at 54,91. The only thing I know is that it will be greatly reduced. Now I am going to take an asprin.

I can't recall if it's in the manual or not but whether at Buna or at 54,91 your supply sergeants will forward enough supplies every few days. In practice what that means is about one day in every four your units will be fully supplied (the supplies come forward) and the other days they'll be slightly short (as your units use them). Hope that helps.

[Halsey]

From a player who has done this operation in the past.
More than once. [;)][:D]

GO GO GO!!![:D]

Your boys WILL pull supply from PM.[;)]

[grumpyman]

I am playing the AI.  My recon is showing falling force levels in buna.  Also a lot of AP are going in and out of buna.  The AI has started to appear a BIT dumb.  Like I said it was feeding me BBs to torpedo.  They are starting to appear on the sunk list.  Well, two have appeared I am expecting two more.  Kongo took 6 torps and is not on the list.  Kirishima finally did appear.  Is the AI smart enough to evacuate[:D]?

[dtravel]

The AI isn't actually an AI in the usual game sense of the word.  It doesn't "evaluate" the situation and then issue orders based on that.  It is apparently nothing but a script for the entire war.  I.E. "on this date, form a TF of these ships and send it here.  On this date use these ships to transport this LCU from here to there."  I think it is roughly following the RL deployments and operations of Japan without regard for what is actually happening in the game.

[BrucePowers]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

I would not go overland. That is way too much time.

It can be the best way sometimes. Buna/PM is a good example. It can be tough to mount an amphib assault around the corner of PNG. Tough for either side. Going cross country can provide a strategic threat that you would be unable to project using sea power alone. And whether it succeeds or not, it prevents the other guy from doing it to you, and it gives him one more thing to worry about.

I had not thought of that. Very good point, sir.

[grumpyman]

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

I would not go overland. That is way too much time.

It can be the best way sometimes. Buna/PM is a good example. It can be tough to mount an amphib assault around the corner of PNG. Tough for either side. Going cross country can provide a strategic threat that you would be unable to project using sea power alone. And whether it succeeds or not, it prevents the other guy from doing it to you, and it gives him one more thing to worry about.

I had not thought of that. Very good point, sir.

Going around the corner of PNG for me at this time of the game would be foolish. IJN still has all their carriers as do I. I am now in Sept 42 and aviation support is just arriving in quanity. I have plenty of Air Groups but without aviation on the ground I can not gain air superiority. What is happening is Raubal and PM are bombing each other. In a week I will have enough ground support to move in another group of B-17s and case closed.

Going overland to buna gives me a chance to get it on the cheap. The worst that can happen is a retreat. I have only sent an Infrantry Brigade and an Art Rgt, plus a Corps HQ. If it comes to an invasion I have an 6 divisions with their objectives set to buna.
I will not go around the horn with them until I wound the carrier force.