AI for MWiF - China

[trees]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I think they represent the artificial harbor the Allies built at Normandy.

We have messed around with House Rules using them to beef up the logistics requirements of WiF by limiting a minor port to supplying only one HQ at a time unless you use a NSU in a way like the Mulberries (along with some port damage/repair rules). So there is some point to the 1944 campaign in France that historically needed Antwerp to continue across the Rhine, unlike WiF where even one HQ on one coastal hex can supply multiple Army Groups and railroads are always in perfect repair and full of rolling stock as soon as you need them. But when playing you can't remember how a few new supply rules work and it is more fun to just leave logistics invisible.

I think the NSU's represent the amazing Fleet Train (fast oilers, ammunition ships, hospital ships, the list goes on) the USN developed. When the Royal Navy wanted to deploy in the Pacific in 44-45 it was hard for them to work with the USN which had a far more advanced naval logistics system by that time.



On China, someone mentioned how to interface the ChiComms and the Nationalists. From what I remember of creating a paper map of the cWiF map, there was never a solid front line across China, but rather several mini-fronts that weren't connected, only one of which might have Nationalists & Communists in adjacent hexes, so I think that won't be as tricky of a waltz as it is now on the smaller scale maps.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Playing in CWIF the Chineese theatre have been mostly about moving your units around the other guy trying to cut his supply or outflanking him, actual battles without overwhelming odds was few.

Very unhistorical all in all.

I'm no expert but the above is how I picture the war between Japan and China. In WIFFE a major battle in an impulse involves 6 corps against 2 which interprets as a two week battle between two armies "in the real world". Were there really as many major battles fought between China and Japan as we typically see in a game of WIFFE?

I'm no expert either but as I understood the war it was not much action going on.
Advance building HQ's by the japaneese to be able to keep more of his units in supply was seen in two of my three CWIF games, never in a WIFFE game.

Encircled armies(4-5 corps) permanently set of of supply was seen in my games both Chineese and Japaneese.

Flank and outrun your enemy was the major part of the game, unit density was to low for anything else.

To compare with WIFFE it plays quite like a campaign in the middle east, low unit density and often units outof supply both so is your enemy so not many fights, more moving into objectives unopposed.

Perhaps it helps the discussion of AI strategy in China to look what happend historically:

1. Even from 1939 to 1945 each year there used to be at least one regional (counter)offensive in China, either Jap or Chinese. Regional means North, Middle or South China.

2. The Chinese first line of defense usually was penetrated, because IJA was equipped with more artillery.

3. After breakthrough Japanese offensives mostly were not very successful simply because of lacking troops. Chinese used deep defenses or more often maneuvered against Japanese line of communication.

4. Huge areas behind the Japanese frontline were Chinese controlled, esp. in the countryside away from the rail lines.

5. Chinese Communist Yennan base area itself did not have a frontline towards the Japanese. It did not include Lanchow or Sian. It was surrounded and guarded by Nationalist Chinese elite units.

6. Logistically the big rivers were very important, at least in summer times. Perhaps in MWIF product2 they could count as railroads...

Sources (Esp. Points 2-3):
Wolf Schenke, Kampplatz Ostasien [Battlefield East Asia], Berlin 1941.
Wolf Schenke, Reise an die Gelbe Front [Journey to the Yellow Front], Berlin 1943
Wolf Schenke, China im Sturm [China in the Storm], Berlin 1949.

Schenke from 1937 to 1939 was the war correspondent of the "Völkische Beobachter" (the daily newspaper of the Nazi party) in China. As such he could move freely on boh sides of the front, because Germany then had good relations with both sides.

Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Wosung,

Thanks.

If you are interested, Terje is starting on the writeups for the Chinese naval units. Perhaps you could give him some advice on sources?

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Wosung,

Thanks.

If you are interested, Terje is starting on the writeups for the Chinese naval units. Perhaps you could give him some advice on sources?

I'll need to check out a few things. But intel doesn't seem to bee very rosy, because, well, there wasn't much of a Chinese navy. It basically consisted of Ninghai and Pinghai (Japanese built coastal defense boats, labelled light cruisers). Additionally 2 German Uboats were vainly orderd. And that seems to be about all. WIF naval counters Chiang Kai-shek and Mme Chiang for sure are what ifs.

Good standard starting point is: Conway's all the worlds fighting ships, 1922-1946, p. 411-415.
PRC Military encyclopedia doesn't mention National Chinas' Navy, the same with Hsu Long-hsuen, History of the Sino-Japanese war.
Wikipedia gives few Infos.
If I should find more infos and sources I'll post then in this tread.

Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Thanks.

[dale1066]

No Probs

I'm happy to play devils advocate and like to try out alternatives in the game, CWif is good for that and guess Mwif will be similar. Save it at a particular decision point and see how the game could have gone if you took up an alternative course of action. Though luck can have its part to play. In running through the start of a Cwif game running more or less the same strategy I've vichy'ed france in march/apr and from the same set up its taken till nov/dec. Just combinations of bad/good weather, initiative/ turn end rolls and bad/good combat die rolling seeming to make the difference.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: coregames
It's at these moments that the Russian AIO and the Chinese AIO need to be in agreement, to maximize the benefits of the transition and avoid mistakes.

Imho, Russian strategy needs to have first priority here. Of course, most of the time there will be no problems, as Russia will do land actions, and the CC can thus move as they want, but in case of conflicting interests regarding action choices for Chinese and Russian fronts, imho the Russian front is, in general, far more important than the Chinese one. (If Russia is brought down or fails to make enough damage to Germany the chance for victory for the Allies is looking very bad)

[composer99]

Seems to me that the Chinese AIO basically has to ask the Soviet AIO for the number of land moves it wants, and the Soviet AIO comes back and tells the Chinese AIO how many it can get. It's usually only a problem when the USSR does combined impulses (especially before it is at war) and has a limited number of land moves to make. If it does a land or super-combined, then the Commies can move as much as they want. If the USSR does a naval or air, they can't move at all. But the Soviets shouldn't really let the demands of the Communist Chinese influence their decisions.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

To Nikolaj & Christopher.

Yes, I agree.

[brian brian]

but the Soviets should run the ChiComms towards acquring their own nice Red victory cities at the end, not towards running feints designed to help the Nationalists get them. In other words, the Soviet AIO should move the ChiComms more like an aligned minor.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

but the Soviets should run the ChiComms towards acquring their own nice Red victory cities at the end, not towards running feints designed to help the Nationalists get them.

I agree.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

but the Soviets should run the ChiComms towards acquring their own nice Red victory cities at the end, not towards running feints designed to help the Nationalists get them.

I agree.

You are welcome to continue this discussion.

However, as a point of information, I have decided that the AIO opponents, 1 per major power, will never concern themselves with which major power gets victory cities. Well, at least not in so far as being influenced by which of its major pwoers is going to 'win'. The AIO wins or loses. Its major powers are merely tools towards that end. There are of course conditions where the AIO will prefer one major power over another to capture a victory city - due to other considerations. But counting up the victory cities for each major power at the end of the game is not one of them.

[composer99]

Yes, counting up victory cities, vying over them, and having the war-time alliance vs. the Axis come apart at the seams because of them seems to be best left to the human players. [:D]

[brian brian]

I agree with Steve completely. I only mentioned it to contrast with some of the thoughts expressed in the Italy thread.

At the end of the game I do sometimes have the Soviets help the ChiComms via long-range bombers performing Ground Strikes (when the USSR is doing super-combineds or air impulses) in front of the ChiComm units. Conversely ChiComm units and/or Partisans can manuever in ways helpful to a Russian ground campaign in the Far East.

[peskpesk]

I am thinking now in terms of 4 line segments for the Chinese frontline:
1 - South/SW to prevent Japanese advances from from Bruma and Indo-China
2 - South/SE to prevent Japanese advances from Canton and Hainan
3 - East to prevent Japanese advances from Hangchow, Wuhan, and Kaifeng
4 - NE to prevent advances from Kaifeng and Taiyuan.

So how should the units be distributed among the 4 fronts during a 1939 setup? Suggestion any one?

China
Chiang,
Mao,
5/1 INF,
5/1 MIL,
2/1 GAR,
2 Cav
1 FTR-2 1 PIL 1 Gun,
1 Inf,
1 Oil

Note 1: #/# = Nationalist/Communist

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
Any port these NSU's are in should be considered a major port.

I am not too familiar with the workings of these NSUs during WWII, but since they're not considered Major Ports in WiFFE (the board game), they won't be in MWiF (the computer game) either.

I think they represent the artificial harbor the Allies built at Normandy.

I always assumed they represented the portion of the US fleet train that was able to support several hundred (!) ships at atolls like Ulithi.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I think they represent the artificial harbor the Allies built at Normandy.

I always assumed they represented the portion of the US fleet train that was able to support several hundred (!) ships at atolls like Ulithi.

I think they represent a bit of both. There are 2 of them, so we may assume they are both. But I'd tend to lend toward wfzimmerman WiFzen.

[composer99]

peskpesk, someone else put up a map with their thoughts on setting up the Chinese, although I do not recall if it was for the 1939 scenario or some later one. Regretably, it was not in this thread!

[wosung]

You meant this one?

tm.asp?m=1770272&mpage=1��

tm.asp?m=1140817&mpage=14&key=
(around post No. 400)

And please keep in mind, that the course of Yellow River was corrected, thanks to Marcus, to represent the 1938 flood.
tm.asp?m=1140817&mpage=23&key=
(post No. 662)

Regards

[WarHunter]

For China or Japan to be victorious there are a few guildlines that i keep in my mind, while setting up and playing.

1. Japanese land units overall are more mobile than the majority of Chinese units. Japan also works with interior lines. This means Japan can change its focus faster and more often during the game. China has to plan ahead and keep a situational awareness well in advance of Japan.

2. HQ's are the key to victory. No HQ, no victory. Always know where they are and where they can go.
Japan has the most mobile HQ in the game (Yamashita), and if placed in China, will give headaches to the Chinese player. China has the very versatile (Stilwell), which can bring into play US units on mainland China. For Japan, (Yamashita), is probably the 1 HQ i will advance build as early as possible. Even if its not a China 1st strategy, there is none better for the Japanese. As China, i want to know where it is at all times.

3. Weather.
One of the most important elements of the game is knowing what weather zone you are in, what weather zone your enemy is in, and using that knowledge to leverage a battle to your favor. The "borders" of weather zones are a prime axis for attacking. Defending these axis are critcal.

In China the "North Monsoon/Temperate", in Southern China will make or break any offensive, Japanese or Chinese.
If the player is not timing his moves with the weather changes, you will see stagnation and retreat. Sometimes the weather will just shutdown entire offensives. Its just the luck of the game you are currently playing, deal with it and make the hard decsions.

4. Partisans. Japan cannot ignore these pesky units. China has a clear advantage here. Partisans can be the deathknell to a Japan that does'nt plan for them. Don't leave air units flipped and without at least a ZOC. Don't have Naval units in port flipped and alone. Secure that supply line or see your offensive grind to a halt. Be ready to deal with partisans. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

5. Maneuver is your best means for gaining ground in China. Flipped units can be moved around and mopped up. Always seek to surround then attack. Flipping units is desired, but not always in the dice roll.

6. Airpower, Japan has the clear advantage, but not with quality only quantity. It will not last forever. Eventually Japan will strip down the Air power in China. For China, fighters are the air unit of choice, later bombers can be addded. Oil will make the use of air power a hard choice for both sides.

7. Which brings us to the whole Japan vs China question.
China has basically a single minded approach. Defend, Build up, Attack.
Defend until its apparent Japan has exhausted its forward motion in China. There will be a transistion where parity in land forces has been achieved. This is the build up phase. Don't be hasty and push the parity into offensive action. Build up a little excess, airpower & oil are the prime concerns. Then push the attack. Broad front and unrelenting. China liberation is primary. Indochina, Manchuria, Korea, Burma secondary.

Japan has many options.
Going for the Knockout blow 100% china or bust.
Limited offensive to secure lines of supply, cities, resources.
Attacking Communist Chinese forces to eliminate them from the field while strategically bombing Factories.
The radical but not unheard of defend/backhand blow with the goal of a large navy/airforce to combat the Allies. So many options. [;)]

These are just some of my opinons of the China/Japan situation.
Feel free to comment, oppose, revise, make fun, of any of the above.