Rules Clarification List

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have been reading the code for ATRs vis-a-vis optional rules (part of my quest to determine which optioanl rules have been coded, document them, and build a list of optional rules yet to be coded).

Currently the code interprets the deselection of Bombers-as-ATRs (i.e., the option is not in effect) to eliminate the No Para symbols from all ATRs. The result is that all ATRs can perform paradrops when the Bombers-as-ATRs option is turned off.

This doesn't seem correct to me. Your opinion and/or advice?

I think the selected option you are talking about is:

Units other than ATR’s can Air Transport and Paradrop, and some ATR’s cannot paradrop.


Please note by selecting this option "some ATR’s cannot paradrop" comes into effect.

Deselection would mean all ATR's (and only ATR's) can perform Air re-supply, Air transport, and Paradrop missions.

Where do you see this in the rules? The copy I am looking at has Option 35 described in section 11.15 as:
Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop mission, even it if is not an ATR. However, aircraft can't fly a paradrop mission if they have a 'no-paradrop' symbol.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Mziln

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have been reading the code for ATRs vis-a-vis optional rules (part of my quest to determine which optioanl rules have been coded, document them, and build a list of optional rules yet to be coded).

Currently the code interprets the deselection of Bombers-as-ATRs (i.e., the option is not in effect) to eliminate the No Para symbols from all ATRs. The result is that all ATRs can perform paradrops when the Bombers-as-ATRs option is turned off.

This doesn't seem correct to me. Your opinion and/or advice?

I think the selected option you are talking about is:

Units other than ATR’s can Air Transport and Paradrop, and some ATR’s cannot paradrop.


Please note by selecting this option "some ATR’s cannot paradrop" comes into effect.

Deselection would mean all ATR's (and only ATR's) can perform Air re-supply, Air transport, and Paradrop missions.

Where do you see this in the rules? The copy I am looking at has Option 35 described in section 11.15 as:
Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop mission, even it if is not an ATR. However, aircraft can't fly a paradrop mission if they have a 'no-paradrop' symbol.

You mentioned no options (but I looked up ATR's and Option 35 &36).

You did mention "determine which optioanl rules have been coded, document them, and build a list of optional rules yet to be coded". This means you are looking for diferences between the RaW, CWiF, and MWiF.


In CWiF The option discription appears at the bottom of the main window when you hold your cursor over the option.

So on the Select Options window, Air Rules page...

Bombers & no paradrop ATR's.
Description: "Units other than ATR’s can Air Transport and Paradrop, and some ATR’s cannot paradrop".


This is the only Air Rule option that meets your specifications.

The next option on the Select Options window, Air Rules page deals with Large ATR's Option 36.

Large ATR's
Description: Some ATR's are large, allowing them to transport and air supply more units

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have been reading the code for ATRs vis-a-vis optional rules (part of my quest to determine which optioanl rules have been coded, document them, and build a list of optional rules yet to be coded).

Currently the code interprets the deselection of Bombers-as-ATRs (i.e., the option is not in effect) to eliminate the No Para symbols from all ATRs. The result is that all ATRs can perform paradrops when the Bombers-as-ATRs option is turned off.

This doesn't seem correct to me. Your opinion and/or advice?

It is wrong to me too.
I think this must be an error and it should be changed.

For reference, the option is :
***************************************
11.12 Air transport
(...)
Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air transport mission, even if it is not an ATR.
***************************************

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have been reading the code for ATRs vis-a-vis optional rules (part of my quest to determine which optioanl rules have been coded, document them, and build a list of optional rules yet to be coded).

Currently the code interprets the deselection of Bombers-as-ATRs (i.e., the option is not in effect) to eliminate the No Para symbols from all ATRs. The result is that all ATRs can perform paradrops when the Bombers-as-ATRs option is turned off.

This doesn't seem correct to me. Your opinion and/or advice?

It is wrong to me too.
I think this must be an error and it should be changed.

For reference, the option is :
***************************************
11.12 Air transport
(...)
Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air transport mission, even if it is not an ATR.
***************************************

Don't leave off the rest of Option 35.

11.18.1 Air supply

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air supply mission, even if it is not an ATR.

11.15 Paradrops

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop mission, even if it is not an ATR. However, aircraft can’t fly a paradrop mission if they have a ‘no-paradrop’ symbol:

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Don't leave off the rest of Option 35.

11.18.1 Air supply

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air supply mission, even if it is not an ATR.

11.15 Paradrops

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop mission, even if it is not an ATR. However, aircraft can’t fly a paradrop mission if they have a ‘no-paradrop’ symbol:

Good catch, I slept around it.
Would you mean that if Option 35 is not in play, they the NO-PARADROP symbols are not used ???
I would have thought that the last part of Option 35 you quoted above (However, ...) would stand even if Option 35 was not used.

It looks like it is right, to ignore the NO-PARADROP symbol if Option 35 is not selected.

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Mziln
Don't leave off the rest of Option 35.

11.18.1 Air supply

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air supply mission, even if it is not an ATR.

11.15 Paradrops

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop mission, even if it is not an ATR. However, aircraft can’t fly a paradrop mission if they have a ‘no-paradrop’ symbol:

Good catch, I slept around it.
Would you mean that if Option 35 is not in play, they the NO-PARADROP symbols are not used ???
I would have thought that the last part of Option 35 you quoted above (However, ...) would stand even if Option 35 was not used.

It looks like it is right, to ignore the NO-PARADROP symbol if Option 35 is not selected.

I would read the option's reference to the no-paradrop symbol merely as qualifying information in that any white range circle plane can fly paradrops while still adhering to the rule for no-paradrop missions for some of those white circled range planes.

Then it follows that the symbol is not overridden and is always in effect regardless of option 35.

Lars

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I would read the option's reference to the no-paradrop symbol merely as qualifying information in that any white range circle plane can fly paradrops while still adhering to the rule for no-paradrop missions for some of those white circled range planes.

Then it follows that the symbol is not overridden and is always in effect regardless of option 35.

Lars

I would too, but the NO-PARADROP symbol is described nowhere else in the rulebook, this is the only reference to it.
Kind of the Red Tactical factor that is useless unless you play with Tank Buster Option.

[Froonp]

I'd add, as an excuse for my ignorance in this subject [:D], that as I always play with Option 35, I never wondered for a case that existed only if you did not play with it [:D].

Pretty much selfish behavior [8D].

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Thanks for the commentary on this. Chris (CWIF) clearly interpretted the No Para symbol as in effect only if option 35 is being used. And I can leave the code that way, simply rewriting the description of what happens when the optional rule is chosen/not chosen.

Or I could rewrite the code (trivial change - 1 minute) so the No Para symbol is in effect at all times. And make that clear in the documentation too.

So, do we have a consensus here? What do other forum readers think?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks for the commentary on this. Chris (CWIF) clearly interpretted the No Para symbol as in effect only if option 35 is being used. And I can leave the code that way, simply rewriting the description of what happens when the optional rule is chosen/not chosen.

Or I could rewrite the code (trivial change - 1 minute) so the No Para symbol is in effect at all times. And make that clear in the documentation too.

So, do we have a consensus here? What do other forum readers think?

I can ask to the rule clarification group too if needed.

Edit : Well, I have asked. I also asked the WiF Discussion list.

[ajds]

The "no para" flag should always be in effect on specified counters, it is a counter ability limit, not an optional rule. In other words, an entity has an ATR counter with the no para symbol in its force pool - that counter should never be able to perform the paradrop mission, no matter what optional rules are in play.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I can ask to the rule clarification group too if needed.

Edit : Well, I have asked. I also asked the WiF Discussion list.

I asked the list, and got a couple of answers.
I asked this :

There is a question that pops up on the MWiF Forum :
This is about Option 35, when it is NOT used, and about the no-paradrop
symbol.

The reading of the below is interpreted as meaning that if you don't use
Option 35, then the no-paradrop symbols are ignored.


11.12 Air Transport, says :
***************************
Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air transport
mission, even if it is not an ATR.

***************************

11.15 Paradrop, says :
***************************
Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop
mission, even if it is not an ATR. However, aircraft can't fly a paradrop
mission if they have a 'no-paradrop' symbol:
***************************

11.18.1 Air Sypply, says :
***************************
Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly an air supply
mission, even if it is not an ATR.

***************************

And nothing else in the rulebook about the no-paradrop symbol.

What is your opinion about that ?

I got 2 answers so far :
From Hubert -- IA211@yahoo.fr :
******************************************************
in the paradrop section there are:
PARAs can only fly a paradrop mission if they start the mission in supply and stacked with an ATR.

So, IMHO, if not playing with option 35, any ATR can make a paradrop mission regardless of the no-paradrop symbol whereas any plane with a white range circle cannot, regardless of the no paradrop symbol.
It is IMO like the boat plane which are considered as normal planes if you do not play the option, loosing their special bonus (overstacking in coastal hex) and limits (can only stack in coastal hex)
******************************************************

From Bill Popovich -- popo1@optonline.net :
******************************************************
I disagree. the "however" part of the statement enforces the no-para symbol even without the optional white-print rule, IMO.
******************************************************

Well, one answer for each possibility.

Maybe this is a candidate for the questions asked to Harry ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ajds

The "no para" flag should always be in effect on specified counters, it is a counter ability limit, not an optional rule. In other words, an entity has an ATR counter with the no para symbol in its force pool - that counter should never be able to perform the paradrop mission, no matter what optional rules are in play.

While your answer has a lot going for it on face value, things aren't quite that easy. Many air units have symbols on them that are ignored when optional rules are not used. Tank busters, twin engine fighters, and night fighters are 3 examples that come to mind immedaitely (I have been checking the code that all of these optional rules are correct - and it all looks good). So, relying on the unit depiction alone to make a determination doesn't work in many cases.

Myself, I am ambivalent[&:]. Perhaps we should ask Harry. By the way, the one response that Patrice got said that bombers flying as ATRs could not fly paradrop missions. I did not get that reading at all from option #35.

[Jimm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

By the way, the one response that Patrice got said that bombers flying as ATRs could not fly paradrop missions. I did not get that reading at all from option #35.

I agree with your reading of it.

[Mziln]

11.15 Paradrops

Option 35: Any aircraft with a white range circle can fly a paradrop mission, even if it is not an ATR. However, aircraft can’t fly a paradrop mission if they have a ‘no-paradrop’ symbol:

To make this part of Option 35 a printing error you really have to stretch your imagination.

(1) This option has a gray background (as do most if not all options).
(2) There are no breaks in the paragraph.
(3) It follows an example of how to paradrop.
(4) It is at the end of 11.15 Paradrops and just before 11.16 Land combat.
(5) The description in CWiF matches Option 35.

So the ":" should probably be a period.



IMO what Option 35 allows you to do is...

Select the option and use White Circle and ATR units for a more historical game.

Or not select the option and have a less historical game but not handicap the player’s airlift capacity.

[amwild]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks for the commentary on this. Chris (CWIF) clearly interpretted the No Para symbol as in effect only if option 35 is being used. And I can leave the code that way, simply rewriting the description of what happens when the optional rule is chosen/not chosen.

Or I could rewrite the code (trivial change - 1 minute) so the No Para symbol is in effect at all times. And make that clear in the documentation too.

So, do we have a consensus here? What do other forum readers think?

I am of the opinion that if No Paradrop is an optional rule, then if the option is not in play, then the rule should not be enforced. Indeed, if an optional rule (any optional rule, not just this one) is not in force, any associated counter symbologies should not be shown if at all possible. No point confusing us newbies unnecessarily...

[composer99]

I myself would agree with Mziln.

[coregames]

While I understand that Siberia is in reality part of Russia, is the penninsula part of the home country in the game? Someone in our current game is maintaining that it is not because you can't reach it with a Marine in land movement from the rest of the country. Geography would dictate that it is, but is this explicitly dealt with in the rules?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: coregames

While I understand that Siberia is in reality part of Russia, is the penninsula part of the home country in the game? Someone in our current game is maintaining that it is not because you can't reach it with a Marine in land movement from the rest of the country. Geography would dictate that it is, but is this explicitly dealt with in the rules?

In MWIF it is reachable with a marine unit.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: coregames

While I understand that Siberia is in reality part of Russia, is the penninsula part of the home country in the game? Someone in our current game is maintaining that it is not because you can't reach it with a Marine in land movement from the rest of the country. Geography would dictate that it is, but is this explicitly dealt with in the rules?

This is not explicitly dealt within the rules, but this has been clarified in the past by Harry :

This is Q326 in our list :
*************************************
Q : What is with Kamchatka (or whatever that semi-island is called)? It is connected to the rest of Russia but not within the border of the MAP. Is it part of the home country or is it a territory?

A : Kamchatka (that part of the Pacific map containing Petropavlovsk (see hex P1847) is a territory. Date: 03/04/1998
*************************************

However, in MWiF this is part of Siberia.

Edit : You can house rule this in the cardboard game too, to be part of Siberia, as this is part of Russia in reality.