CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

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WITPgamer
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by WITPgamer »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I would have much preferred Iran or North Korea and/or China combined, someone we might be more likely to goto war with than little ole puny Syria.


As previously noted here and in other threads your ignorance is rivaling that of a child, but it does go a long way to explaining why wargamers are constantly regurgitated the same tired old scene.

Ive been following CMSF for a few months now and although there are some areas I wish to see expanded overall it appears to be a very descent attempt to recreate modern combat. Being able to play red on red should allow us to recreate a huge amount of scenarios from Iraq/Iraq, Africa, Afghanastan to hypothetical Iran/North Korea. NO, these campaigns are not included out of the box, but considering the War in the Pacific campaign what buggy to the point of UNPLAYABILITY when I purchased it I think that this can be forgiven. If there were no scenario editor then there would be something to complain about.

With regards to it being out of taste some people need to take a step back and look at our hobby. There are many currently serving troops on the forums over there who have commented about their interest in the title, and if they arent upset by the content its sad that we would be. Any wargame can be said to be in bad taste if one looks for a reason.

Its has also been noted that the review you mention was largely copied from various press articles. If you want a descent preview try the one below.

http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/cmsf_preview/
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cdbeck
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by cdbeck »

Now, lets not demonize RH here, because he is not really being ignorant. I think it is ambitious to buy a game EXPECTING there to be mods like this. Who knows, mods may be years coming and may all be back in the line of WWII scenarios. All depends on the modding community. What RH is talking about is, from a release standpoint, he would not plunk down full price for a NATO vs. Syria only campaign (although I would remind all that, like the linked article stated, most CM games really don't have a "campaign" per se, rather they are a selection of several battles). This really is not ignorant, as one can't anticipate what the modders will do (I could care less about people creating African battles or East European battles, for instance). I would say (and this is what RH will do anyway [:D]), that one feeling the way he does should wait until the price lowers or modders start producing campaigns that draw you in.

Now, to be fair. I have CM:SF preordered. I don't feel it is impertenant nor a bad value. In fact, it was the modern units that drew me to the game. I always felt that the WWII CM were WAAAAY too slow (crawling tanks and weaponry that seems like rubber bullets). I think I will like that much more devestating modern weapons. Of course, I also like to play "twitch-fest, kiddie" RTS games... [;)]

SoM
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dinsdale
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Now, lets not demonize RH here, because he is not really being ignorant. I think it is ambitious to buy a game EXPECTING there to be mods like this.

Have we really, truly reached the stage where being able to play more than one side is considered a Mod?

I always laughed when people said that companies would soon be selling empty boxes with cover art and tools to make a game. Looks like we're one step closer if the expectation level has sunk this low.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by cdbeck »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Have we really, truly reached the stage where being able to play more than one side is considered a Mod?

Sigh... [:-]

Again, you CAN play Syria. You can play as Syria vs. NATO. You can play as Syria vs. Syria. You can do this vs. the AI. You can do this vs. Humans. You just don't get a stand-alone, story driven campaign for them. According to the CM developers (mostly from the mouth of Moon), there will be the normal sized amount of CM scenarios that allow for both sides to be played.

Basically, if you were to apply your argument to the original CM: Barbarossa, you would have to say that you couldn't play as ANY side (German or Russian) as it didn't have a story-driven campaign for either side, just lots of stand-alone mission maps.

So no, I don't see this as sad or some comment on the gaming industry. I think that Battlefront avoided making a Syrian campaign precisely to AVOID accusations of "bad taste" and to be "politcally correct."

SoM
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade
pad152
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by pad152 »

I don't have an issue with Blue on Blue or Red on Red battles for training. I was looking for something closer to Steel Panthers, give us the units and maps them let us decide who is the good/bad guys. I wonder if the game is going to suffer from a lack of different unit types, we were so spoiled with the earlier Combat Mission games.

What I don't understand is
1. No Helio's (maps to small?)
2. Talk of Britian, German add on modules but no Israel, Iran, or Iraq? (I guess BattleFront can't get contracts from those countries [8|])
3. No civilians (warfare in the middleast isn't just with soldiers in pretty uniforms).
4. No Syrian campaign (why do I have to make my own)?

I'm not sure what to make of CM:Shock Force so I'll just wait for the demo!
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cdbeck
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by cdbeck »

They outlined why they did not include civilians in a blog entry (you can read this in the linked review above). Civvies would have upped the system requirements and basically been a developing nightmare. No real wargamer would be happy with "wandering" civvies like in the Command & Conquer series, or even the idiotic ones from X-COM style games, so a civilian AI would have to be developed. And because the unconventional warfare units would have to blend in with civilians, the game would also have to deal with the moral grey-area of killing non-combatants in the face on unconventional warfare...
 
As to the other nations, yeah, it would be nice to see more "coalition forces" represented.
 
SoM
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dinsdale
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Basically, if you were to apply your argument to the original CM: Barbarossa, you would have to say that you couldn't play as ANY side (German or Russian) as it didn't have a story-driven campaign for either side, just lots of stand-alone mission maps.
Well not at all, that's a different game which isn't pimping campaign play as a selling point. What might be an apt comparison is the Close Combat series, where in this brave new world of getting fans to write your content for a pat on the back, would have had no German campaigns.
So no, I don't see this as sad or some comment on the gaming industry. I think that Battlefront avoided making a Syrian campaign precisely to AVOID accusations of "bad taste" and to be "politcally correct."

SoM
Huh? You'll have to further explain the politically correct arguement where there's a US campaign against Syria, but not vice versa. If you're going to blame political correctness, then why is there a game pitting the US against Syria at all.
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cdbeck
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by cdbeck »

Din, I just put 2 and 2 together. Earlier posts said the whole game was in "bad taste' considering the current political climate. I imagine that, with the majority of the market for the game in Western markets and in NATO countries (a.k.a. the United States and England), trying to create a story-driven campaign - where your CO would be asking you to motivate the Suicide Bombers to overcome the heathen for the jihad would be a really hard sell, especially in the US. If people are already on edge about the content, that sort of thing would be enough to really set people off (didn't stop EA with C&C:Generals though, but I digress). There are levels of tolerance and "political correctness." Maybe the developers felt the content was close to the line, but a palatable Syria campaign would just be too risky. I don't know. Go ask Moon over at the forums.
 
And everyone acts like Battlefront is trying to "pull the wool" over peoples' eyes about this lack of a Syrian campaign. It is openly stated, and I believe that there are TWO Nato campaigns to beef up the gameplay. And Syria is playable in skirmish, so it isn't as if the side does not exist. This really isn't all that odd of a developer choice. For example, Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War ONLY shipped with a Space Marine campaign, but allowed players to play Eldar, Chaos, and Orks on skirmish maps. The 1st expansion pack ONLY shipped with an Imperial Guard campaign. And you know what? Those games had tons of gameplay value and were dang good (for a "twitch-based kiddie RTS" [:D]).
 
SoM
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade
WITPgamer
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by WITPgamer »

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Now, lets not demonize RH here, because he is not really being ignorant. I think it is ambitious to buy a game EXPECTING there to be mods like this. Who knows, mods may be years coming and may all be back in the line of WWII scenarios. All depends on the modding community.

They are pretty much included right out of the box though, no need for a 'mod' as such. You have the tanks, APCs, missiles, troops map editor and the ability to make scenarios/campaigns, etc all in the box.

I guess that Im looking at CMSF as more of a Red vs Blue simulator, and Battlefront just chose to make the shipping scenario using Syria as a basis. The list of vehicles that Syria uses and their organisation is pretty much identical to your average Russian aid package from the 80's and earlier, with some of the deadly new anti tank missiles, rpgs and tank upgrades thrown in.

With regards to the ignorant comment that was in reference to Syrias military being 'puny', obviously showing no knowledge on the matter.
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ravinhood
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by ravinhood »

The President of Syria is commander in chief of the Syrian armed forces, comprising some 320,000 troops upon mobilization.




Main Battle Tanks
4,700 (2004 est.)








Syrian Army

[edit] Current Structure and Organization of the Syrian Army
  • 200,000 personnel plus 280,000 conscripts, total 480,000[1]
  • 3 Corps HQ (1st, 2nd, and 3rd)
  • 7 armoured divisions (apparently 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th[2])
  • 3 understrength mechanised divisions (4th, 7th, and 10th)
  • 4 independent infantry brigades
  • 14th Special Forces Division with 3 SF regiments; ten independent regiments
  • 2 independent artillery brigades
  • 2 independent anti-tank brigades
  • Three Surface-to-surface missile brigades (each three battalions)(one brigade with FROG-7, one brigade with SS-21 Scarab, one brigade with Scud-B/C/D)
  • Two coastal defence missile brigades (one with 12 SS-C-1B Sepal launchers, one with 12 P-15 Termit launchers, alternative designation SS-C-3 'Styx'). Also they are strong rumors that Syria received C-802 systems and 100 missiles from Iran.
  • One border guard brigade
  • One Republican Guard division (one artillery regiment, one mechanised brigade, three armoured brigades)

Looks pretty puny to me when a couple of tactical nukes would wipe them out rather quickly. ;) Our Airforce would destroy all their battle tanks within the 1st week if not less. ;) Syria as I said is PUNY. Only one ignorant around here is you not realizing the HUGE power America has to destroy a country at will. ;) We've lost more men/boys to POLICING action than we ever lost during what was called a war. I thought in a war the enemy fought back. lol Iraq was obliterated during the war portion. lol

And just to show you how PUNY Syria is:
The Iran-Iraq War ended with Iraq fielding the world's 4th largest military, with more than 70 army divisions and over 700 aircraft within its air force[4]thanks to funding from the surrounding Gulf states and billions in loans and funding given or secured by the US State Department to support Iraq's war with Iran.[5][6] Losses during the invasion of Kuwait and the subsequent ejection of Iraqi forces from Kuwait by a United Nations coalition resulted in the reduction of Iraq's ground forces to 23 divisions and the air force to less than 300 aircraft. Military and economic sanctions prevent Iraq from rebuilding its military power. Iraq maintained a standing military of about 375,000 troops.
 


Now maybe you should go do your own research before you start calling someone ignorant B**!
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by WITPgamer »


Looks pretty puny to me when a couple of tactical nukes would wipe them out rather quickly. ;)

Ah yes, well done, I figured that was about the level of your mentality, thank you for reassuring myself of my ability to spot an idiot when I see one. Very amusing the way you had to run to google after the fact in order to see what on earth you were talking about too, bravo. Unfortunately none of that magnificently researched information is at all relevant to a tactical level wargame but hey, you gave it your best shot.

No point in taking this conversation further though, unfortunately I dont have a six pack at hand to dumb myself down to your level.


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Monkeys Brain
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by Monkeys Brain »


No point in taking this conversation further though, unfortunately I dont have a six pack at hand to dumb myself down to your level.


LOL [&o]
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by JudgeDredd »

...
Only one ignorant around here is you not realizing the HUGE power America has to destroy a country at will.
...
Considering the current state of world affairs, I'd say that's a pretty crap thing to run about quoting.Pretty shallow even for you ravinhood. [&o]

Back to topic, I'm not sure about picking this up. I definitely haven't pre-ordered it yet, although I'ma  fan of the CM series. After Theatre of War (which I am having a mare trying to even remotely enjoy) I just want to make sure about what I buy...so I'll wait until the CM fans have had their mitts on it and wait for their feedback. If they like it, it's a sure thing I will....and I'll pick it up...if they don't I listening to the reasoning and make a decision of my own...and it'll probably be the wrong one anyway.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by martxyz »

I think whether you think CM:SF is in bad taste and ill-conceived is obviously one of opinion and politics and perhaps the issue doesn't really belong on a Matrix Forum. To give you an example, we could have CM:SF2 where the US invade Syria and then get bogged down in a gueriila war for 10 years, accidentally splattering the odd civilian target, avoiding roadside bombs, and maybe having British support so that a passing A-10 can blow them up by mistake. This is a TOUCHY subject. If people want the game, then fine. But go over to Wargamer if you want to discuss it as they seem to like this type of conversation, or discuss it at Battlefront, so that the developers can explain themselves.
The game is not just bad taste - it's sick!
If you think that it's just another wargame, ask yourself how many copies are going to be bought in the middle east except by american service personnel. I have a feeling it won't sell by the bucket-load in Syria; but what the hell - it's only a game.
Sick.

If there is a moderator around, perhaps it's time to come and stomp on this thread please.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by Howard7x »

After the shambles of TOW i too am totally unsure of CM:SF and so im going to wait for a review and a demo before taking the plunge. If i had of gone by gut instinct and just got TOW before playing the demo i would have been horribly dissapointed. I REALLY dont like that game. Give me close combat any day of the week.
 
RH, whilst i agree with most of your posts, the last few have made you out to be very arrogant and ignorant of the state of affairs in the middle east. And im not going to argue the point, its a fact. Thats all i have to say on the matter.
 
Back on topic.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by Plodder »

The game is not just bad taste - it's sick!

How?It models modern warfare,warts n' all.We're all wargamers here, don't you think all the games we play are morally sick then?IEDs and suicide bombers are part of modern warfare just like kamikaze attacks and flamethrowers were part of World War 2.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by JudgeDredd »

Mart

It's a wargame...end of. It's other people that put the politics in it...much like yourself tbh.

As The Plodder says, every single conflict is in bad taste...but we spend time fighting them. If they made the invasion force attack a fictional country, people would be pissed about it because they'd put their own spin on it.

Sorry, but you (the royal you) should leave politics out of gaming...there is no place for it. If the developers were using it as a political tool, then , in my case, they have wasted their time. I would be no more in favour of a western invasion of Syria in rl as I would a Syrian invasion of the UK....doesn't stop me playing a game though.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by martxyz »

Hi Judge
Your point's well taken, and it's true that wargaming is, by definition, about war. It's a strange but despite this, on forums like this, and NWS and SSG, the people playing them are just so darned pleasant. I think I can only put the way I feel by way of an example. Quite a (large) number of years ago, I used to enjoy playing Harpoon, and flight sims like Tornado etc. But at that time, although the weapons being modelled were modern, and you were out to wreak maximum destruction (well - sometimes) it didn't actually matter. In the days of the cold war, a mission to blow Warsaw to bits meant nothing. If such a war ever happened, the niceties of peoples opinions wouldn't have counted a jot. When the changes (and unpleasantries) came during the 90's I simply lost the stomach for it. Even during the cold war, I would have felt very uneasy about some things. Vietnam scenarios, central american scenarios. All the places where the superpowers fought out there little wars. There is also a general point that as the time frame gets more and more modern, there is a tendency for there to be assumptions made about who "we" are. Wargaming, at it's best, should be for everyone, regardless of where they live, or their race or religion.

I can't deny the general thrust of your argument though. The only trouble is I would just hate it if the matrix forum turned into the the type of nut-case wargaming forums you can find elsewhere. I just can't see how it's possible to have a generally neutral and well-spirited attitude to a game like CM:SF and I think that damages the hobby.

It's not a great philosophical argument, but I think it could tend to happen. I know everyone seems to get fed up with WW2, but the other extreme is to have "SWAT 5 University Massacre" which could, conceivably be argued as a simple tactical game, but would rightly cause outrage.

I just feel uneasy about the whole thing.  I think I expressed my views in a clumsy and off-hand way, for which I apologise.
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by JudgeDredd »

Well.....I'm not denying you your feelings, that's for sure. Everyone is entitled an opinion...everyone.

However, being as that is your stance, maybe you should look at another hobby? [;)]

Seriously though...I would rather fight a virtual war on my PC than take up arms and conquer Syria myself. For me, the game isn't about the conflict so much as about the tactics I'd be able to employ. CM:SF could be the US invasion of the UK...would I buy it? Probably. Would I be pleased about invading my country and killing millions of innocents? Absolutely...and why? Because it's virtual.

I could no more stamp on a cockroach than kill another person.

So I keep my killing to gaming. I'm not trying to suppress any secret desire I may have to slaughter mankind.....I just want to game [;)]

But like I said, if you feel that the game is in bad taste, then you should avoid it...like I did with Postal. Very bad taste, so I avoided it. I wondered what the developers were doing making t pos....but alot of people bought it...enough to make them make another. Do I think anyone who bought it is going to re-enact the alleged events in the game...no, I hope not...but just because I wouldn't buy it for moral and ethical reasons (probably more to do with not wanting to give the developer any more money!!), I wouldn't say people should avoid it for my reasons...

Each to his/her own I say.

Funny thing is, I jumped on ravinhood about his comment. I actually find it more offensive that he said that than the content of the up and coming game! Go figure.

And I'm not yank bashing. Anyone could have stated that about any country and I would've found it offensive that someone was so arrogant as to suggest "all takers come on"...

Sorry for the ramble. Just trying to allay your fears that I may be using the new game as a training tool to hone my skills...[;)]
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martxyz
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RE: CM:SF PREVIEW DID you see it?

Post by martxyz »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
Sorry for the ramble. Just trying to allay your fears that I may be using the new game as a training tool to hone my skills...[;)]

Hi Judge. Never thought that for a minute. I usually agree with everything you say. As I recall you're a Scot now living in Parachute town. I worked in Corby for nearly 15 years so I got to have my batter and eat it!

It's a valid point though about whether I should be at this wargaming lark at all. I do wonder that myself.

Cheers
Martin
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