I noticed on the old Talonsoft game, when played on a current Windows progarm, would bring reinforcements into play on the first turn they could potentially arrive, regardless of the percentage chance plotted into the scenario. In other words, I could set the chance at 1 percent, but it would arrive 100 percent of the time on the first available turn.
With Matrix, it appears to be working properly, but I still have questions. I think it's working because units do not come in on the first available turn, regardless of the plotted percentage. On the other hand, they appear to be beating the odds and coming in soon thereafter. If the odds are 1-in-10, I don't expect every unit to come in within three turns of the first available turn, and, so far, that appears to be true, but I haven't experimented with it extensively.
I think there may be something else going on that I don't understand. I set multiple units that could arrive on turn ten, each with a 10 percent chance of arriving. On turn ten, every unit arrived. I think there were about 12 separate units. I found it hard to believe that all 12 units successfully hit the 1-in-10 chance of arriving on turn ten. This led me to question whether only one roll is conducted for all the units sceduled to potentially come in on any given turn. If that is true, that would explain why all 12 units beat the odds on the same turn.
Releases work the same as reinforcements, so I'm assuming they work the same way.
Has anyone experimented with the reinforcements/releases enough to explain what is happening? I thought I understood how it was designed to operate, but it does not appear to be operating in a fashion consistent with what I would expect. I'm not even sure if there is a problem.
Reinforcements/Releases
Moderators: Jason Petho, Peter Fisla, asiaticus, dogovich
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
Another example: I gave a company a 5 per cent chance of arriving on turn 9. It arrived on turn 9. Those were 1-in-20 odds, but the company beat those odds. I gave three sets of units each a 10 per cent chance of arriving on turn 10. On turn 10, all three sets arrived. Each of the three units beat the 1-in-10 odds. This makes me think reinforcements will arrive on the first available turn, regardless of the percentage plotted into the scenario editor. In the editor, I enter the percentage as 5 for 5 per cent and as 10 for 10 per cent. Do I need to enter them as .05 or .10?
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
I don't think there is a problem. On my XP system the reinforcements always worked as designed both Talonsoft and Matrix. Just did a test when I placed a 20 percent probability of reinforcments in turn 6 in a 15 turn game, they failed to show up the entire game. when I changed the probability to 90% the reinforments entered the board in turn 6.
Huib
Huib
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
This is a great question! I've had my doubts about this subject in the past....playing with fog of war makes it hard to tell what's going on. So, I made a little 10-turn test scenario with 15 reinforcement units coming on at various percentages in the first 3 turns and ran it several times - they actually seem to flow onboard in a naturally random manner. I marked each unit with it's turn and percentage, so I could tell what's what as they came on - anyone who wants me to send this scenario to them email me at Arizonus1 at yahoo dot com [:)]
Ariz
Ariz
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
Thanks for the responses. I'm scratching my head on this one and trying to figure out if I'm doing something wrong. If it's working properly for you, it should work properly for me. Because I had the same experience with the Talonsoft games, I'm now thinking it must be something I'm doing. The manual shows dropping in a number without decimals, and that's what I've been doing. I'll experiment a little more. Your feedback is helpful.
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
I created a test scenario too, and it worked properly. Even units on scheduled to potentially come in on the same turn did not all come in on the same turn but on different turns. In the test scenario, I simply clicked to advance turn without moving any units.
However, in my regular game, where units are being moved before pressing the advance turn button, the units come in on the first available turn regardless of the percentage listed in the editor.
However, in my regular game, where units are being moved before pressing the advance turn button, the units come in on the first available turn regardless of the percentage listed in the editor.
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
In the test scenario, even when I move units on the map and fire artillery, the game works properly for purposes of reinforcements.
In my regular game, the reinforcements come in on the first possible turn, regardless of the precentage listed in the editor. There must be something I'm doing in the regular game than I'm not doing in the test scenario.
In my regular game, the reinforcements come in on the first possible turn, regardless of the precentage listed in the editor. There must be something I'm doing in the regular game than I'm not doing in the test scenario.
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
In a regular scenario, I changed the percentages from 10 to 8 or 12. I thought perhaps the computer was confusing 10 for 100. When racing through the turns by simply advancing to the next turn withou moving any pieces, it worked properly. I took the test scenario and changed all the percentages to 10, and it worked fine too. All I know is I played a regular scenario with around 11 units supposedly to come in with a 10 percent chance, and all 11 came in on the first possible turn. There was also one unit with a 5 percent chance, and it too came in on the first possible turn. I've experienced this before, but I can't see any pattern or any explanation.
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
I think I found it. When one side is set on manual and the side with reinforcements is set for computer with fog of war, that side's reinforcements will come in on the first potential setting, regardless of the percentage in the editor. I put the percentage at 1 in the editor, and when I used the test scenario as described above, I was able to recreate it. When I peek at the other side by changing the AI setting and then reset it at computer with fog of war, the same thing happens. I don't know if leaving it at manual makes any difference. I haven't tested that yet. Will anyone else test this to see if it does the same thing for them?
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
An interesting subject, but one I think the "programmer" could answer. Why hasn't someone official jumped in here and told us how it is really done?
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
ORIGINAL: Rik81
An interesting subject, but one I think the "programmer" could answer. Why hasn't someone official jumped in here and told us how it is really done?
Maybe because there isn't a programmer or perhaps because there is no problem? I could not replicate the issue. If it has to do with the AI, fair enough. Even less interesting. The whole feature is questionable even, especially in historical scns: what is more historical - the actual arrival moment or - the feeling of uncertainty of the guy waiting for them. I nearly always set my reinforcements to 100% probability.
Huib
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
Huib is absolutely correct. If you set your reinforcements for 100 percent, or if you want 100 percent historical accuracy, this thread poses a moot question. You might even find this thread irritating.
If, however, you play against the computer, with or without the fog of war, and if your play scenarios with historical variants, or if you play apocryphal scenarios with reinforcement variants, then this thread may interest you because there may be a problem with the reinforcements.
I realize from reading other postings that some players prefer 100 percent historical accuracy. I'm not one of them. I like historical variants, and I even like apocryphal scenarios. I don't even necessarily care if the maps are apocryphal. It depends on the purpose of the scenario. If you want to recreate a historical battle, accuracy is something you'd want. If you want a fun scenario, accuracy is irrelevant. For players who like 100 percent historical accuracy, this might seem like sacrilege, but this type of heresy is one of the things I like best about the game. I think the designers intended variants and apocryphal scenarios because they included the reinforcement variants.
Huib says he was not able to replicate the issue. Thank you Huib for taking the time and effort to check. Huib may be right. There may not be a problem with the game. The problem I'm experiencing my be with my computer or with how I'm using the editor or how I'm using some other facet of the game. That's what I'm trying to determine. I appreciate Huib's time and effort, but a survey of one is not much of a survey.
That said, is there anyone else who can design a test scenario with one company where one platoon is scheduled to come in as a reinforcement on each of game turns 1, 2, 3, and 4 (assuming you have 4 platoons). The test scenario only has to be four turns long. Set the reinforcement percentage at 1. Not because 1 is something you'd actually use in a scenario, but because the odds are stacked excessively high against coming in on any given turn for one platoon, much less a series of three or four platoons. When you play the test scenario, if you set the side with reinforcements at manual, the game will run properly. After further testing, I've found, at least on my computer, that if the side with reinforcements is set for the computer (without fog of war) or for the computer with fog of war, the reinforcements will come in on the first possible turn, even if the percentage is set at one. This will be true for every platoon. This will be true however many times you play the scenario. In the test scenario, I leave the map flat, open, and with full visibiity. On the manual side, you have to have units placed where they can see the reinforcements arrive. In the alternative, after the turn of the side with reinforcements, you can switch the AI to manual and see whether the units arrived on the first possible turn. After you peek, you have to then reset the AI for computer (with or without fog of war). You have to repeat the process after each turn. It's simpler just to have the manual side have units positioned to see the computer side's reinforcments come in.
My testing also shows that the releases run properly. The problem I'm experiencing is limited strictly to reinforcements.
When I did my initial testing, I left both sides on manual, and the game ran properly. When I played scenarios in which I knew the remote odds of reinforcements, I found the computer beat the odds ever time. I play with the fog of war on, but I noticed it in scenarios I personally designed, so I was aware of when the reinforcements could potentially come in. It's only when I switched the side with reinforcements to the computer that I noticed a glitch.
If no one else is experiencing this problem, I'll know the problem is with my computer or with something I'm doing. If others are experiencing this problem, then I know it's not my computer or me. This is not the type of problem a person would necessarily notice, because I would guess that most players who play the computer do so with the fog of war on, which means they wouldn't know when the enemy's reinforcements are scheduled and, therefore, wouldn't notice if they were consistently coming in on the first possible turn. For players who play with the computer with the fog of war off, I'm not sure they'd be paying that much attention to when the reinforcements are scheduled to come in. When testing a scenario, the designer might flip through the turns with both sides on manual, and the problem wouldn't appear. Or if the odds were set at 50 percent or 66 percent, the fact that the reinforcements were coming in on the first possible turn might not appear that odd.
I appreciate any feedback, even negative feedback.
If, however, you play against the computer, with or without the fog of war, and if your play scenarios with historical variants, or if you play apocryphal scenarios with reinforcement variants, then this thread may interest you because there may be a problem with the reinforcements.
I realize from reading other postings that some players prefer 100 percent historical accuracy. I'm not one of them. I like historical variants, and I even like apocryphal scenarios. I don't even necessarily care if the maps are apocryphal. It depends on the purpose of the scenario. If you want to recreate a historical battle, accuracy is something you'd want. If you want a fun scenario, accuracy is irrelevant. For players who like 100 percent historical accuracy, this might seem like sacrilege, but this type of heresy is one of the things I like best about the game. I think the designers intended variants and apocryphal scenarios because they included the reinforcement variants.
Huib says he was not able to replicate the issue. Thank you Huib for taking the time and effort to check. Huib may be right. There may not be a problem with the game. The problem I'm experiencing my be with my computer or with how I'm using the editor or how I'm using some other facet of the game. That's what I'm trying to determine. I appreciate Huib's time and effort, but a survey of one is not much of a survey.
That said, is there anyone else who can design a test scenario with one company where one platoon is scheduled to come in as a reinforcement on each of game turns 1, 2, 3, and 4 (assuming you have 4 platoons). The test scenario only has to be four turns long. Set the reinforcement percentage at 1. Not because 1 is something you'd actually use in a scenario, but because the odds are stacked excessively high against coming in on any given turn for one platoon, much less a series of three or four platoons. When you play the test scenario, if you set the side with reinforcements at manual, the game will run properly. After further testing, I've found, at least on my computer, that if the side with reinforcements is set for the computer (without fog of war) or for the computer with fog of war, the reinforcements will come in on the first possible turn, even if the percentage is set at one. This will be true for every platoon. This will be true however many times you play the scenario. In the test scenario, I leave the map flat, open, and with full visibiity. On the manual side, you have to have units placed where they can see the reinforcements arrive. In the alternative, after the turn of the side with reinforcements, you can switch the AI to manual and see whether the units arrived on the first possible turn. After you peek, you have to then reset the AI for computer (with or without fog of war). You have to repeat the process after each turn. It's simpler just to have the manual side have units positioned to see the computer side's reinforcments come in.
My testing also shows that the releases run properly. The problem I'm experiencing is limited strictly to reinforcements.
When I did my initial testing, I left both sides on manual, and the game ran properly. When I played scenarios in which I knew the remote odds of reinforcements, I found the computer beat the odds ever time. I play with the fog of war on, but I noticed it in scenarios I personally designed, so I was aware of when the reinforcements could potentially come in. It's only when I switched the side with reinforcements to the computer that I noticed a glitch.
If no one else is experiencing this problem, I'll know the problem is with my computer or with something I'm doing. If others are experiencing this problem, then I know it's not my computer or me. This is not the type of problem a person would necessarily notice, because I would guess that most players who play the computer do so with the fog of war on, which means they wouldn't know when the enemy's reinforcements are scheduled and, therefore, wouldn't notice if they were consistently coming in on the first possible turn. For players who play with the computer with the fog of war off, I'm not sure they'd be paying that much attention to when the reinforcements are scheduled to come in. When testing a scenario, the designer might flip through the turns with both sides on manual, and the problem wouldn't appear. Or if the odds were set at 50 percent or 66 percent, the fact that the reinforcements were coming in on the first possible turn might not appear that odd.
I appreciate any feedback, even negative feedback.
RE: Reinforcements/Releases
Could someone at Matrix tech and support check this? Although it's possible, I think it's unlikely unique to my computer. Given the weak AI, I'm thinking it's not a bug or oversight but something Talonsoft did deliberately to help the AI, because it only kicks in when reinforcements are scheduled for the AI. It ensures the AI gets the reinforcements as early as possible.
Huib may be right about it not amounting to a hill of beans. Even if you set the reinforcement percent at ten, all you are talking about is a variance of about an hour, because each turn is only the equivalent of six minutes. If you're using percentages of 50 or greater, you're really only talking about a probable variance of one turn, which, in the context of a scenario, is irrelevant. Huib is right on the mark there. I like the feature though because it can keep a scenario fresh and, to a degree, unpredictable. If you've got reinforcements potentially coming from different directions but you don't know when or in what order, as the human player you have to remain flexible. To achieve a meaningful unpredictability, however, you'd have to keep the percentages pretty low.
If you're designing a scenario, you can get around it by placing the units in a corner of the map and fixing them there with a release. As far as I can tell, the releases work properly even when assigned to the AI.
Huib may be right about it not amounting to a hill of beans. Even if you set the reinforcement percent at ten, all you are talking about is a variance of about an hour, because each turn is only the equivalent of six minutes. If you're using percentages of 50 or greater, you're really only talking about a probable variance of one turn, which, in the context of a scenario, is irrelevant. Huib is right on the mark there. I like the feature though because it can keep a scenario fresh and, to a degree, unpredictable. If you've got reinforcements potentially coming from different directions but you don't know when or in what order, as the human player you have to remain flexible. To achieve a meaningful unpredictability, however, you'd have to keep the percentages pretty low.
If you're designing a scenario, you can get around it by placing the units in a corner of the map and fixing them there with a release. As far as I can tell, the releases work properly even when assigned to the AI.