CHS, non stock, and opponents

[undercovergeek]

Before i post in the opponents wanted section - i have time for just one more game - currently running 2, i have noticed that hardly anyone is playing stock, and i am also still playing 1.804 as my opponent and i dont wish to interfere with our PBEMs. So....

1. Whats so great about CHS - the apparent mod of choice
2. Can i download CHS and still run stock as a seperate exe, and can i upgrade to 1.806 on that download, but keep the original install as 1.804
3. Who fancys a game then? (my current PBEMs are actually my first and second attempts at the game so im still new)

[Hortlund]

Actually I prefer stock over CHS.

[Terminus]

Me too.

[Feinder]

1. Whats so great about CHS - the apparent mod of choice.
I'll let you know about 6 months.  But basically, there was all the talk about CHS (and the map is BEAUTIFUL, and the addition of Aden & Panama are at least cool, even tho you have to rememebr to keep sending transports there).  The OB for CHS is supposed to be more accurate in CHS (altho I couldn't tell you what was wrong with either of them).  Also the maps are somewhat different (less rail, slows things down a bit), and many of the starting and max sizes of airfilelds have been reduced.  I'm happy thus far with what I've seen (as far as OB and map changes).  It certainly plays a little different than stock (for those reasons stated above) - so it'll take a little getting use to (I still am).  I don't know that CHS is "better" than stock (I think stock plays fine), but it's a new feel, and since I (and some others obviously) had time for a new game, I decided to give CHS a try.  If you want something a little different, just to change the feel of things a bit, CHS is worth a shot.

2. Can i download CHS and still run stock as a seperate exe, and can i upgrade to 1.806 on that download, but keep the original install as 1.804?
Yes.  I have a separate install for CHS.  They're in entirely separate folder trees (both under Matrix).  I have separate icons for my "normal" WitP, and one for CHS on my desktop.  It's just a matter of saving the file to the right folder when you it via email (I have shortcuts to "WitP Save" and "CHS Save").  Then firing up the correct icon. And yes, you have to update each .exe separately (you jsut have to point to the other directory when you run the update).

-F-

[tanksone]

Hi, I think their's more of us out there playing stock than the opponents wanted shows.

[TommyG]

The AB map is an improvement, but I had real trouble with the CHS fix for the "big air battle" problem. CHS increased the durability of fighters so that the losses in large scale battles would be more historical. An unfortunate side effect disables approximately half of the allied fighters flying cap and made the zero almost impossible to shoot down until 43. As a result, a good jap player can virtually ignore allied LBA for the first year. As a test I sailed the KB into San Francisco and it took a month for the AI get rid of it, and then they did it with subs, PTs, and surface ships. No air attacks got through. In real life the Japs may have been that capable, but they didn't know it. The experienced Jap CHS player will make it almost impossible for you to stop him anywhere in the South Pacific and will put India or Oz at real risk. It might be a better game for the IJ player, but it sure will piss you off when 60% of your CAP is grounded and your entire base is bombed into sand, over and over, and over again.

[undercovergeek]

cool, i shall request a stock game then!
 
thanks for help

[Hortlund]

Use stock with Nikmod. Game is useless without nikmod.

[witpqs]

In stock P-51's cannot escort raids over Japan even from Iwo Jima. Many other Allied planes also have such incorrectly short ranges that when you deploy them in places where they were very productively used in WWII, you cannot even reach anything in stock. I switched to CHS and more recently to RHS. RHS is based on CHS, with further changes to OOB's, ships, planes, devices - all based on research. It also has changes to air combat that, like Nikmod change things pretty dramatically to be more realistic (the game engine prevents making complete progress toward fixing that).

In the most recent level of RHS (level 7) you will find Australia reduced in size (more realistic, it was too big due to the map projection), and more potential bases included there and elsewhere. In both CHS and RHS the supply situation is made more challenging for the USA in the first 18-24 months. Many resources and HI are damaged and must repair, better simulating the situation of sparse supply while America ramped up its manufacturing capability.

[Feinder]

In both CHS and RHS the supply situation is made more challenging for the USA in the first 18-24 months. Many resources and HI are damaged and must repair, better simulating the situation of sparse supply while America ramped up its manufacturing capability.

 
They are?
 
Ooops.
 
I better go find them, and turn them on...
 

 
-F-

[witpqs]

They are set to repair by default, but each item repairing chews up 1,000 supply per day. That has two effects: 1) as each repairs it provides more oil/resource/supply/whatever, and 2) when fully repaired that center stops chewing up 1,000 supply per day.

After a few months the supply situation gets a bit better, and continues improving. It takes about or more than 3 years for all repairs to be made.

Be careful about some smaller west coast ports, though. The game engine requires 10,000 supply present before it will repair any centers (resource, oil, etc.). Because any port on the USA mainland has an additional 30,000 supply requirement (due to game code), they tend to draw in supplies they don't need. That results in a few small ports being in the red, and the defense units getting suffering attrition. And the facilities in those ports won't repair if less than 10,000 supply are present.

You have to be very careful about how much supply you pull out early on - you need to let supply in the USA really pile up to be repairing facilities. That means your front line units are in a more balanced supply situation (instead of having mega-supply in early '42) - or you can take the supply and suffer later when facilities haven't repaired, and you have way more reinforcements that arrived which you need to feed.

It seems to work well in (at least better) simulating the shortages early in the war and the surpluses later in the war.

CHS did this first, RHS started there and made some further additions to the scheme. For example, in RHS it is very important to bring Resources back to (in level 7) New Orleans, which has factories and oil but very little resources. When you ship in resources the factories produce supply, but only if you provide them with resources.

Oh, yeah, there are many other places around the map that need to repair facilities, like in Australia and New Zealand.


[BTW, in this post and the previous one I might have been using the wrong terminology. When I write HI and factories I mean the production gizmos that eat oil and resources to produce supply.]

[mc3744]

I've always played stock, with AB maps.

Once I tried CHS, but I didn't like it.
All the different cargo capacities and speeds made my life creating convoys (a big part of the game) a real pain, with no added bonus.
I'm sure that other changes to the OB have improved the game, but I was bothered by so many different transports type. I really don't care so much for cargo's accuracy.

Maybe one day I'll try it. But I'm still unconvinced.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

In stock P-51's cannot escort raids over Japan even from Iwo Jima. Many other Allied planes also have such incorrectly short ranges that when you deploy them in places where they were very productively used in WWII, you cannot even reach anything in stock.

We have been told that if the aircraft were given accurate ranges the players would abuse the capability.

[wworld7]

Dolphins play stock with AB maps also. Once you try them you can never go back (or your eyes will explode).

[docpaul]

Hopw do you play Stock with AB mapes? Aren't alot of places screwed up on the Map?

[ChezDaJez]

1. Whats so great about CHS - the apparent mod of choice.
I'll let you know about 6 months. But basically, there was all the talk about CHS (and the map is BEAUTIFUL, and the addition of Aden & Panama are at least cool, even tho you have to rememebr to keep sending transports there). The OB for CHS is supposed to be more accurate in CHS (altho I couldn't tell you what was wrong with either of them). Also the maps are somewhat different (less rail, slows things down a bit), and many of the starting and max sizes of airfilelds have been reduced. I'm happy thus far with what I've seen (as far as OB and map changes). It certainly plays a little different than stock (for those reasons stated above) - so it'll take a little getting use to (I still am). I don't know that CHS is "better" than stock (I think stock plays fine), but it's a new feel, and since I (and some others obviously) had time for a new game, I decided to give CHS a try. If you want something a little different, just to change the feel of things a bit, CHS is worth a shot.

I'm playing both at the moment... stock vs Andy (Feb 43) and CHS 159 vs Brad (Jun 42).

So far, I like CHS much better. Better map, better transport modeling, better aircraft stats... better all around. Bombers will almost always get through even if its just a couple of leakers. The air combat routines produce more realistic losses.

The map is excellent. There are many bases that in stock start out as bases but in CHS, they start out as dot hexes such as Tulagi and Lunga. That means the Japanese player has a use for all those construction units even though they are slower than slugs. That also means that should the Japanese player invade a dot hex, he had best plan on having some airpower nearby if he is range of allied air otherwise nothing gets built if the allies bomb it.

The big plus is that all transports have been redone so that while the Japanese may have more than stock (not sure they do but it feels like it), the transports , both AP and AK are much smaller, some as small as 660 load capacity (most are of the 1100-2000 variety). Japanese supply is reduced at the beginning making it imperative that the Japanese player capture resources in good condition as soon as possible.

I have found it very difficult to mount more than one large operation. I either don't have the transports or the supply where they are needed and it takes time to gather everything together. Basically, you can run supply convoys and mount one large (1+ divisions) operation at a time, especially once you start receiving damage to your APs. It is still possible to run several small amphib operations simultaneously

Having said that, there is one thing that frustrate me with CHS 159. The first being that I can have 50+ Zeros on CAP and have small, unescorted TF strikes of 3-6 allied 2e or 4e bombers break through every time with barely any scratched paint (Brad differs in this opinion). My fighters MIGHT make one pass and head home for more saki. This is probably closer to reality than stock but its still frustrating (unless they are my bombers!!!). However, it seems to handle larger raids quite well. Air losses are greatly reduced but combat produces far more damaged aircraft.


Chez

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: docpaul

Hopw do you play Stock with AB mapes? Aren't alot of places screwed up on the Map?

Many stock scenarios have been modded to use AB's maps, with no other changes. Look on Andrew's website.

[eloso]

ORIGINAL: TommyG

The AB map is an improvement, but I had real trouble with the CHS fix for the "big air battle" problem. CHS increased the durability of fighters so that the losses in large scale battles would be more historical. An unfortunate side effect disables approximately half of the allied fighters flying cap and made the zero almost impossible to shoot down until 43. As a result, a good jap player can virtually ignore allied LBA for the first year. As a test I sailed the KB into San Francisco and it took a month for the AI get rid of it, and then they did it with subs, PTs, and surface ships. No air attacks got through. In real life the Japs may have been that capable, but they didn't know it. The experienced Jap CHS player will make it almost impossible for you to stop him anywhere in the South Pacific and will put India or Oz at real risk. It might be a better game for the IJ player, but it sure will piss you off when 60% of your CAP is grounded and your entire base is bombed into sand, over and over, and over again.

I'm playing CHS 2.08 scenario 160 in 2 PBEMs. This version uses the alternative A2A model with the Soviet fleet present. One of them has progressed to 05 JUN 42 and I'm not having much trouble at all shooting down the A6M2. I have even put a bomb into the Kaga from LBA. You are correct in that the pilots aboard the carriers fare better.

Here is a screenshot of aircraft losses so far:

[ny59giants]

I'm a convert to CHS. That being said, the Allied supply situation with the damage to Oil/Resources in the USA has not hindered me yet (2/42). The United States base has already maxed out supply and fuel. However, to help out in India, I have sent bi-monthly AK's from Karachi to Aden with Resources and have to send Oil from Aden to the various bases in India to get the HI to max out.

I like having all the different size AK/AP, the coastal AK's with less than 300 capacity to the large AP's with around 5000 capacity. You also have to adjust to Panama as many LCU's and ships come there.

The A2A has three different models - stock, nik mod, and experimental along with the Soviet navy (which I have a long time to see in use).

The situation in China is vastly different and I feel I can hold it as the Allies while in stock the Japanese seem to have an easier time.

Just my $.02

[ctangus]

I'm personally a big CHS fan and an even bigger AB map fan (I doubt I'll ever play another game not on his map.) I've played I think 7 or 8 CHS games - including CHS/Nik Mod variants. 3 are still on going - 1 in Apr '42 (as Japan). 1 in Mar '42 (as allies). 1 in Jan '44 (as allies.)

I certainly think CHS does provide more "historical" or "plausible" capabilities to both sides, all of which I like. Here's some of the notable ones:

- The map changes slow down ground offensives (for both sides).
- Smaller transport sizes slow down naval offensives for both sides 'cause the sealift just isn't there.
- Smaller starting base sizes force strategic decisions closer to what the real-life commanders had to face. (That's even more true in Treespider's CHS.)

- Dozens of potential airbases in India make that a much tougher nut for Japan to take. It could probably still be done but would require exquisite planning & great gameplay.
- China's also extremely defensible (perhaps slightly too much so.)

- Allied 4Es have their bombloads reduced and while they're still a problem for Japan (as they were IRL) they can't close a base in a day.
- F4U-1s are toned down a bit and aren't the X-Wings that they are in stock. (F4U-1Ds are as good as in stock, but they arrive a year later).

A couple slight negatives:

- I mostly like the color of the many different transport classes each size has. Though sometimes it gets a little tedious to manage.
- All the allied planes come in squadrons, not groups. That's extremely helpful in the early game when airfields are still small and aviation support is scarce. Later in the game managing hundreds of squadrons also gets laborious.

All in all I personally think CHS is a great modding effort. My preference is the CHS scenarios with the Nik-mod A2A & flak changes (which I also like).