WoW TOTAL WAR Is BACK!

[Prince of Eckmühl]

IIRC, I was playing on "normal" difficulty, so your experience is certainly going to be different than mine. I've never had much use for games that give the AI "bigger-bullets" than my own. Mechanisms such as that have always struck me as nothing more than attempts by the developer to conceal the inadequacies of their AI.

No matter what level of play, however, there are numerous exploits that can be used early in the game, foremost among them the ability of two or three light cavalry units to lay siege to castles and towns. The AI will dutifully respond with an attempt to raise the siege with the local garrison, whereupon, one cavalry unit simply races to the town/castle square while the garrison chases the remainder about the map. Voila, another province is mine.

In defense against the AI, a single border cavalry unit is impervious to attack by even the largest of forces, so long as the enemy doesn't have any missile cavalry at his disposal. All they have to do is run away, moving from corner to corner of the map. They can shut down even the most massive of invasions in this manner.

The other TRULY GAMEY technique (it's not even a tactic), is using light cavalry or militia to surround and destroy enemy personalities, princesses, ambassadors, merchants, and so on. The more restricted the terrain, the easier this is to do. Block all the spaces adjacent to the figure, and then march a last unit into the agent's space. He dies. Goodbye, Mr. Inquisitor!

Obviously, I spent more time on the game than I should have.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[ravinhood]

Ahhh I see the difference in our play now. I don't play or look for gamey ways to play it. I would never run around the map to elude defeat, if I can't win as I'd hope to win against another human I just won't play those kinds of tactics. If I don't have the forces or I've made a mistake I will surrender or withdraw and give the AI it's well deserved win. But, having the AI chase you while you send in a lowly cavalry unit to capture the city square is something I'm sure you know no human would let you get away with. Thus why use a strategy that you know you couldn't use in reality? I will play for flanks or rear attacks as that is militarily feasable. But, I won't look or use an exploit just because it favors a victory for me over an otherwise average AI at best.
 
I also personally like giving the AI advantages and handicaps just like I do human opponents whom I can beat regularly. A lot of people play that way. What I am doing an most others are doing are looking for that balance of power  that actually makes the game equal to your ability and not everyones is going to be the same. But, if you play every game thinking it should be excellent vs your own ability then you are in for a long road of not very interesting or challenging gameplay. It's why Sid Meiers games of Civilization, Colonization and Alpha Centauri are so good. He allows for many levels of balance of power and each person finds their own level that is fun and challenging to them. Even Stardock did it with their GalCiv series. Neither of the two series has an excellent AI, they have an excellent way of programming them to give challenge to a wider audience of players by allowing for more difficulty levels and more advantages and handicaps. I look at it just like bowling leagues. Everyone in the league gets a handicap based on their level of bowling and that makes the leagues fun and challenging because even some of the worst overall average bowlers can win sometimes.
 
Though I'm not saying the Total War series couldn't use some improvements on the AI objectives perhaps in the sense of Civilization and coming at you in more force than it does. But, then again one can't play a game one or two maybe three times and determine that the AI is suky all the time. They could have programmed in a code that every say 10th game all the AI come after you all the time. Most people never play any game long enough to really find out how well the AI can be in the long term. Many want it the first game and well in this day and age that just isn't going to happen. There's not an AI I can't beat, but, that is not the point, the point is the path to that victory, was it fun? was it satisfying? Did I feel challenged? Did I bite my nails? Was there a point or points where I could have lost? Was it good enough that I want to play it again? Those are the only questions I ask myself and if I can get a yes to the majority of them then I can't expect anything more out of the ai. Difficuly levels only improve the chances of me answering yes to most of those questions. It's when the highest difficulty doesn't even give me one yes out of all of them that says the ai is crap and the whole game as well.
 
We all can down on AI's, I know I do it as well. But, we need to ask ourselves as well have we not played against human opponents who gave less of a challenge or no challenge at all? I know I have. Some humans cannot improve their ability to play a game no matter how much you try to help them. They can't comprehend or don't want to comprehend etc. etc. So, really those that say a human opponent is MUCH better than playing against an AI should have to play against some of my human opponents in my days. Just like AI's some are good and some are just horrible and you try to hide from them so you don't have to play yet another game of chess that you know you are going to stomp them for the umteenth time. lol That's why I like computer games and AI's at least if you do find an AI you don't like, it doesn't hound you to play yet another game with it.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Just like AI's some are good and some are just horrible and you try to hide from them so you don't have to play yet another game of chess that you know you are going to stomp them for the umteenth time.

I guess that's really sort of what I was getting at. When I first played M2TW, I learned very quickly that the game was cheating. The most blatant example of this, IMO, was it's steadfast determination to limit the size of my faction's leadership. If the Inquisitor didn't get them, some other oddity would, and I had no luck putting "buns in the oven, either. As a result, I rarely had generals for even two-thirds of my provinces, and it wasn't unusual for that number to dip below fifty-percent. Well, screw that! If the best the game can do is cheat, then I'll find ways to smack it. What I'm describing is an excellent quality in a play-tester, BTW. It drives the designer crazy, but you get at all the little warts in the game, and will uncover a lot of problems that might, otherwise, go unnoticed before it gets shipped.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[EagleMountainDK]

Is it possible to play the grand campaign as Denmark? Or do I need a mod for that?

[GreyFox]

Denmar is a playable faction, yes.

[ravinhood]

I think Denmark was one of the unlockables. I just went into the strat file and moved all the unlockables up to unlocked. I think it's frickin silly to put unlockables in a damn strategy wargame.
 
It is now 1148 and as I had feared England after destroying France drew a bead on my territory along with the HRE. In miracle moves on my part I was able to thwart them from taking my capital Arhus and major castle of Hamburg. But, in doing so I lost Madeburg castle to the Germans for ONE turn. lol Then another miracle happened. In 1134 the fricking SCOTS finally left England Prime and invaded Antwerp and the HRE and a few turns later attacked CAEN as well against the English. Amazing AI lol my allies finally came to help me even Sicily another ally of mine finally declared war on the HRE after taking out all of Milan save one province and the Papal States. Of course this drove the HRE empire to send a diplomat to me immediately to sue for a peace agreement. It also opened the gate for me to sue for peace with England and they gave it to me. I AM FREE FREE FINALLY FREE without a war. lol
 
Many years of peace have allowed me to buff up my relations with Poland, Scotland, Sicily and Russia. It appears if one gives 100gp per turn for 5 turns you get an advancement along the reputation line to the better. I've been doing this religiously with all those factions and now have up to reasonable with most of them and so-so of a couple.
 
Time flies by and the pope has&nbsp;forced me to dissolve my alliance with Sicily because Sicily took out all the Papal states. But,&nbsp;I waited until the very last turn of that mission before doing it. The next turn I tried to get it back but they ain't too happy with me now and my reasonable reputation with them went to abysmal in a flash. Now the Pope has called for a crusade against them and getting&nbsp; back an alliance looks dismal at best. Everyone and their mothers brother is joining this crusade, I guess I must also. <sigh> alas my army of peasants and peasant archers will give their lives for this cause as I ain't givin up my quality units to no stinkin east LA crusade. lol

[EagleMountainDK]

Yeah, I just found out of that unlock thing. This isn't an arcade game. But its nice to know how to do it now.

[Monkeys Brain]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I have to say, MTW2 is a good game and it did suck me in for a few days, but I still don't find it as good as the original MTW. Plus, the whole series to me will always be less than it could be without true strategic game multiplayer - it's been crying out for that since Shogun Total War and I can't believe they still haven't done it. I really could care less about playing out individual battles in multiplayer, the campaign is what it's really about and the AI just isn't a good challenge.
[/quote

Blasphemy.

MTW2 is upgraded and better product than MTW in just about all areas.
Didn't see sieges were so good in MTW.

Hmmm... I would add that MTW2 is just about x100 times better than that catasrophe of Commander: Europe at War that costed me 38 eur on your very own matrix web site.


Mario

[JudgeDredd]

I'm actually enjoying Commander EaW very much. It's a bit short on a couple of things, but I think it's a pleasant change from all the standard fair.

Value for money wise, it was much more value for money than Carriers at War which I love, but it's very thin on content. I have to be honest, after seeing what they released in Battlefront, I promised I wouldn't buy one of their games...but I succumbed to Carriers at War and I will not be buying another SSG game...there is just not enough content in their games for me.

I had Korsun Pocket many years ago, and that was the same...their games just seem to be lacking in meat. I know there are alot of fans of SSG games out there. I'm not slating their game style, which I kind of like in a boardgame kind of way, but more the fact there isn't alot in them. And I know there are alot of user scenarios out there, but I'm not a believer thaty a company should charge full whack for a game and provide the tools for the community to create scenarios. Whilst it's admirable they do this, I don't think it should be a forgone conclusion that the community will develop scenarios for them.

I'm now going to don my flame retardent cloak and hide in the corner! [;)]

[freeboy]

once you figure out the easiness of Mtw2 on vh/vh, try .5 year turns with the stainless steal mod, the ia, due to the added monies they get and the year adjusted from two years KICKS ASS! pm me for specifics should you be interested or simply look on the official forum... good luck, Mtw2 is a good solid, now that it has been patched up!, game. The next add on my be even better... we will see

[pad152]

My only issue with MTW2 is with the pope and HRE, even after your's gets picked, the pope and HRE still turn on you.[8|] I really hope some day CA will do an Napoleonic game, although Hist War Les Grognards looks intersting but doesn't seem to have a strategic level to it.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I'm actually enjoying Commander EaW very much. It's a bit short on a couple of things, but I think it's a pleasant change from all the standard fair.

Value for money wise, it was much more value for money than Carriers at War which I love, but it's very thin on content. I have to be honest, after seeing what they released in Battlefront, I promised I wouldn't buy one of their games...but I succumbed to Carriers at War and I will not be buying another SSG game...there is just not enough content in their games for me.

I had Korsun Pocket many years ago, and that was the same...their games just seem to be lacking in meat. I know there are alot of fans of SSG games out there. I'm not slating their game style, which I kind of like in a boardgame kind of way, but more the fact there isn't alot in them. And I know there are alot of user scenarios out there, but I'm not a believer thaty a company should charge full whack for a game and provide the tools for the community to create scenarios. Whilst it's admirable they do this, I don't think it should be a forgone conclusion that the community will develop scenarios for them.

I'm now going to don my flame retardent cloak and hide in the corner! [;)]

Heh, I will never deny you the right to like Commander game... [;)]

It's not bad game but it's simply not a 38 euro game either. I am not going into contract detail vis a vis Slitherine - Matrix Games and how they cut profits lolz but this is simply not a 38 euros game and next time i will be much more careful when I buy such games. it's nice SMALL game but overpriced and I am in agreement with ravinhood, some games simply deserve to be ignored or just waited till they hit 20$ price tag. But that is simply not MTW2 as it is started to take shape here, frst by ravinhood and then by others. Simply you cannot put MTW 2 into mud where Commander: Europe at War is. MTW 2 is 1000 light years ahed of this little minesweeper game. maybe bill gates can put it on vista for free?

Of course Judge feel free to disagree.

And hey let me know what game you need so that I can send you! It's not fair that you send me game and that I don't send you. I am not that kind of person.

[Joram]

You're lucky you are playing v1.2.&nbsp; Prior to this (or 1.1, whatever)&nbsp;the AI was so horribly borked that I had to put it away.&nbsp; It is somewhat enjoyable now!

[ravinhood]

Well as the world turns I now find myself in a war with the HRE, Poland (again!) and now RUSSIA the sorry good for nothing no good dog bags. I've been allied to them since the game began, they even helped me against Poland for awhile. Then the dogs backstabbed me (I really love this in an AI) and just as I said above that navy they had is HUGE and they blockaded every port I got (grumble mumble). And POLAND I had AMIABLE reputation with them, but, when Russia attacked me they did also and the HRE decided to send THREE yes THREEEEE FULL STACKS down upon me again. lol I don't know what M2TW game you guys are playing, but, mine is simply fantastic. These are awesome turns and battles. I'm certainly not sweeping thru anyone like I could in RTW and even to a point in MTW I had an easier time than I am in this one.

I certainaly can see though it is in the restriction of troups you can build per turn AND the amount of the Economy you can build up early. In MTW and RTW I could build up two full stacks and still have my cities well defended and be sweeping the continent in no time at all. In this one it's like playing WWI in a way to me with a little bit of attrition during each phase of war I go thru. I haven't really lost any ground yet and have improved by one city or castle after every war. Once I get oh double what I have now in provinces I'm pretty sure it's all over. lol I have 8 now. I'm strong enough in the battles to win them even against full stacks mainly I think because the AI isn't advancing in upgrades as well as I am, but, they are building more troups. Most battles I am outnumbered 2 to 1, but, I have better units. This last battle was an omg look at all those catapults and trebuckets. WoW there was no use defending the walls those catapults and trebuckets just slaughtered my walls. What I did was backed up inside from the walls and let them have their way at them. Then I moved a unit up and this drew the catapult units closer in. Then I charged out with my three cavalry units and wiped out the catapult units before the ai could respond, then rushed them back inside lol inside what? haha well inside what used to be my walls and charged out my infantry vs their cavalry they had charged trying to get my cavalry. I had 3 units of militia spearmen and they did well. Then I charged out the rest of my force into the crossbows they had up on the hill that hadn't advanced yet. Sent 1 unit of militia spearmen toward their leader and used my own leader for rear and flanking attacks and routed the rest of the army. A miracle win for me once again.

I can see clearly though if they ai didn't have an economic advantage I would be sweeping thru Poland and the HRE easily. But, because they can build 2 to 3 full stacks to my 1 I have to be very careful of my battle tactics. I lost one castle earlier, but, I got it back the next turn. What I do is build one strong stack force that can reach at least two other castle/cities in one turn. This way I can always either thwart the ai or get back what I lost in a previous turn. Getting that 2nd attack stack is what I'm dealing with now. I had been giving  money away thinking that an AMIABLE or REASONABLE relationship would secure not having to worry about a war with that faction. Well no more free money to the AI you can bet that lol. I'll use that to build my 2nd stack now and just start torching and burning a city/castle at a time of the enemy and just selling everything I can and leave. When I get to that 3rd stack I'm pretty sure I'll be in the drivers seat. But, I can certainly say there will be fun getting there. Unlike RTW which was so pathetically easy on vh/vh I wanted to rip someones lungs out.

Now who do I see inching their way toward my territory and has signed a truce with England and HRE??!! Guess I'll give you one! lol The SCOTS! omg if they attack me I resign. lol That will be the icing on the cake if they decide to turn against me as well. And I got like 8 stars on the Pope scale chart. I'm being soooooo nice, yet, everyone wants to knock me out of the game. lol (I love that in an ai)

Somehow methinks many of you or some of you or specific ones of you just didn't play the vh/vh game. You played on NORMAL which by all practical purposes is really EASY and then you beat the ai and claim it is lame. I say if you can't beat or won't even play vh/vh then you're not a gamer at all or want any challenge at all. I'd say you're too chicken an afraid you might lose to a machine. lol ANd don't give me any of that computer cheating blah blah, you're a human, it shouldn't matter if the computer ai cheats. You're suppose to be beyond the power of a machine....or are you? Hell at least try h/h, but, a REEEL MAN would play vh/vh.

Addendum: Well as I expected (I must be psychic lol) the SCOTs attacked my best military producing castle and caught me with my pants down since it is only at half strength. I had to pull everything but a handful from Magdeburg to hopefully take it back after the butt kicking I thought I was bound to take. BUT! lo and behold I capture Prague (of course I got the Pope message of do not attack or I will excommunicate you lol) on my turn and sacked it for 71000 florin total after selling all the buildings except farms, roads and castle upgrades which it doesn't allow. 71000!! florin woohoo. This is the beginning of the end now as I am able to create that 2nd stack to guard my rear as I advance with my primary stack to capture and sack more cities. THEN! to top things off Poland who owned Prague sued for peace. I hurt them bad I think taking Prague AND The SCOTS asked me to become a vassal which I quickly accepted. They pulled off on their attack of my main castle and immediately attacked England and the HRE again. lol Now I have all my cities/castles upgrading and am only at war with puny Russia who's armies on land are like nats. Their main strength is at sea. But, I can live with blockaded ports, hardly feel their effort.

So, I can see one of the players advantages in vh/vh is if they can break away long enough to sack a huge city and sell everything they can gain the upper hand for a bit. They had over 20000 population and mine are like 10000 to 14000 lol. I got more florin choosing that middle selection after a victory than the first one or the 3rd one would give. 71000 florin though that was nice. I spent it already though. lol One more huge city sack like that will also mean my 3rd strong stack and that will be the one to break the camels back as I can then take out Poland with ease and then work on the HRE and then it's game over cause when I get 20 provinces I can't be beat.

I really think Hungary is the faction to play for most challenging one. It's right in the middle and thick of things to begin with and doesn't have very good units or income. Basically any faction on the outside or at the corners has less to worry about than those in the middle. I noticed Milan got knocked down pretty fast and of course France, but, well a human playing France would have a much easier time. Sicily is the surprisng ai faction. They've knocked out the Papal States again. Lol ROME IS BURNING.

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: Joram

You're lucky you are playing v1.2. Prior to this (or 1.1, whatever) the AI was so horribly borked that I had to put it away. It is somewhat enjoyable now!

Alright... I will try it again - sometimes... hope not in 5 years. [:D]

[ravinhood]

And play h/h at least. This is GOOT AI, is fun yah! haha

[Monkeys Brain]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And play h/h at least. This is GOOT AI, is fun yah! haha

I also play MTW 2 at VH/VH it's not that hard once you settle, and defend your little kindgom.

[ravinhood]

Ahhh kewl another brother in arms who's willing to take the challenge to the maximum and not whine about the ai cheating.
&nbsp;
As I play futher I am noticing most of the Ai's aren't protecting their cities and castles very well, but, since they aren't playing for a victory of 45 provinces they don't really need to. The ai's only objective is to harass the human player as much as possible and try to prevent him from reaching HIS objective of 45 provinces before time runs out. Sitting inside their castles and cities like I'm doing to protect what I already have doesn't really benefit them. Sending out 3 full stacks to harass my rear does. lol I think many people want the ai to play balanced and like them and historically, but, I can see the reason for the way they programmed this ai. It's nothing more than a delaying action really and harassment in your rear and weak areas. This is also more a risklike game than an historical simulation, I don't see how anyone could&nbsp;see it differently.&nbsp;Alliances for the most part as far as the human is concerned are useless. If nothing more they are time delay factors before the ai backstabs you and attacks you or surprise attacks you again. In this regard Crusader Kings has a better alliance AI. Scotland came to my rescue several times in that game when I played Sweden. Even vassaling doesn't last forever. I went thru two vassals with the HRE and they broke it both times one time the very next turn. Now, I'm a vassal of Scotland who is attacking England, HRE and Spain now. I'm just sitting back taking out Polands stuff and laughing at Russia who has no land based units to worry about, but a navy that would make you cry it blockades everything of mine. lol Poland is weak now and ripe for the pickings. I've taken 3 of it's major cities/castles and headed to another. Scotland has taken three of the HRE's cities/castles so the HRE is sucking hind tits now. lol And Sicily is coming up on them from the&nbsp;south as well. Except for Russia it's starting to look much like my old MTW game where at the end it was the Byzantine (Egpyt has replaced them in this game), Spain and Me playing for the final results. Spain has taken most of the moors now. England will get squeezed by Spain and Scotland soon and the HRE, Poland and Russia territory will be mine not too long from&nbsp;now. Egypt is sacking out the Turks, the Byzantine are holding onto two provinces, Hungary are down to one. Venice is trying to steal from Sicily; there it's anyones game. The Papal states are gone though a pope still exists lol.
&nbsp;
What this game needs is a random map generator and faction difficulty sliders as well as an overall difficulty slider. I'd like to make different factions more powerful each game. As it stands now it's all or nothing you don't get any extra control over setup of the factions. It cuts the replay value down when you've played a faction. Once you win with it there's not much reason to play it again as it will be the same ole armies fighting it out for the same ole cities/castles. I know I can go into the files and make factions stronger, but, a slider would have made that much easier to do than resetting stats every other game. I like the castle/city feature I wasn't sure I would like that at first after hearing about it. It adds more strategy to what you build and where to place castles and cities or convert. I like to keep a castle inbetween several cities and keep a high income coming in. As it stands now I have four castles and 7 cities. About 2 to 1 cities vs castles is a good mix for me.

[anarchyintheuk]

If you're sacking cities, executing prisoners and breaking treaties your reputation is probably in the prince of darkness/beelzebub range. At that point, the ai factions generally take to attacking you on sight.

[Monkeys Brain]

[:D] Good, I see that you are having fun!

You are right about historical aspect of the game. In my game England was in alliance with France[&:], then it made peace with me and attacked Denmark but few turns later attacked me again... and such things...