The interface

[Berkut]

I know this is a bit of a labor of love kind of release from a single guy, but...

Well, the interface sucks. The resolution is fixed. Scrolling is poorly implemented. Selection and movement of units? You have to click on a stack, which then opens a little dialogue box, then you ahve to select whether you want to move one unit or the stack out of the dialogue selection, then it shows little arrows and you get to click where you want to go, and then it tries to move some units there.

What happened to drag and drop?

Left click selects, right click opens options? Double click selects the stack? What about drag selection of units?

Scroll bars?

Real windows?

These are all pretty much standard UI elements from, oh, 15 years ago?

I realize we are in a niche hobby, with niche development. But one of the reason we are going to remain a niche hobby is that people aren't ever going to see if there is a good game underneath the opaque interfaces that are non-intuitive, and difficult to use. Sure, those of us who love this stuff will struggle through the interface to get at the game underneath, but not everyone.

You start the game with two strikes against for anyone who is ambivalent about these things.

[SiTheSly]

Totally agree - also the manual is useless.
 
There is no tutorial I've started two games and have not moved one unit yet as I cannot find any reference on how to do it.
 
I'll put it away now and this Frank guy can be bothered to write a simple introductory manual this week then I'll give it another go. If not I'll ask for a refund to my Visa card and inform Visa that I will not be paying for something which is unusable.
 
I don't care if its one guy he could write a manual in a few days and Matrix are equally at fault for allowing this to be published and sold when it is unplayable. $40.00 for this is a joke.

[7th Somersets]

Try clicking on the unit that you want to move and then clicking on the hex next to it. If you own the hexagon you will be able to move into it.
 
If you do not own the hexagon you will need to activate an adjacent HQ unit in the 'activation' phase. Then simply click on the unit you want to move and then onto the hex you want to attack.
 
It is that simple...
 
 

[PJL1973]

Yes, the manual is less than helpful at times, would have been better if it had 10-15 extra pages to explain everything in more detail. A FAQ is sorely needed for this game ASAP. The cluttered interface doesn't help either.

[SiTheSly]

When you know how to do something it usually is quite simple. It should have been in the manual.
 
The game needs a step by step example of one turn on one front with instructions.
 
Its not complicated...

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly

When you know how to do something it usually is quite simple. It should have been in the manual.

The game needs a step by step example of one turn on one front with instructions.

Its not complicated...

This isn't really a complaint about the interface, but rather the manual.

Although a good interface can make some things intuitive, there is nothing wrong with things not necessarily be intuitive if the game is tring to do something a little different (like the activation mechanic, which I think is excellent). For that, you need a decent manual.

The difference is that a poor manual is easy to fix. Crappy interface is very, very hard to fix.

This has been a problem in a LOT of Matrix games, some of their very best games in fact. WitP, FoF, this, just to name a few.

[JD Walter]

Gentlemen,

I agree that the interface is certainly cumbersome, but I would not be so quick to dismiss "Guns of August", or so harsh.

Frank Hunter is well-known in the industry for the careful coding of his games (very few bugs, and those that do arise are patched quickly) and the excellent personal support he gives the community. He is one of the few designers who supports his products long after their release.

Frank also has a good sense for play-balance. Like Gary Grigsby, his games are deep and can reveal new strategies to try after repeated playings.

In years past, in the early days of PC gaming, I too was initially displeased with "The Road from Sumter to Appomattox" (Adanac), but after giving it a 2nd chance, found it to be one of the best strategic-level ACW games on the computer for its time. I believe the same will hold true for GoA.

[Berkut]

Def, what bothers me is that what you say may very well be true. In fact, it almost certainly IS true.

But so many people will never know because they will look at the game, say "This is unplayable" and never dig deeply enough to find out what is there. And all because the interface does not operate under what has become completely standard expectations of how a windows system works.

It is like saying there is this incredible desert chef at the local greasy spoon diner. There might be, and some people may really enjoy him - but a lot of people are never going to find out because they walked in the door, saw a roach scurry across the floor, and turned around and walked back out.

There is good interface design, brillaint interface design, and poor interface design. This is poor interface design, and actually makes the game harder to play. The interface should reveal the brilliance of the design, not hide it.

And you know what the response is from friends of mine who wargame when I complained about this?

"Haha Jeff, you keep buying that crap Matrix is shoveling out because you think the next game won't suck like the rest. There is optimism, and then there is being a sucker. You are a sucker!"

I don't think that is true, but I am kind of tired of the argument. I cannot get my primary PBEM opponent to even try the new FoF - he got tired of waiting for the patch, and doesn't want to have to re-learn that games PITA interface now that they have finally fixed some serious bugs months and months after release. And this is after we spent hours and horus playing it and figuring it out before.

This is going beyond GoA at this point, but the trend is there.

[SiTheSly]

Berkut,
 
I apoligise for hijacking your thread and agreed with you but got carried away with my frustration at the poor manual. I'll stop replying to this thread now since I'm sure the manual/tutorial issue will be discussed in another thread. As stated it is not a complicated issue to resolve and I'm sure it will be. I must admit I regret being so hasty now.

[JD Walter]

Hi Berkut,

True, my friend, very true...

Like ASL's ruleset, there is a certain "learning-curve" in just navigating the interfaces to Frank's games. Having previously played one of his earlier Adanac designs and "Campaigns on the Danube 1805 & 1809" (Matrix), I was prepared for such beforehand.

GoA was in production for almost a decade, and I did not expect it to be "state of the art" in many regards. But I am finding a great deal of depth in its play, much like GMT's "Paths of Glory" or Gary Grigsby's designs.

GoA certainly has an interesting subtlety in its opening moves, which I am only now seeing after repeated starts; I am confident I will find other aspects to it which reward careful thought and comparative analysis. Hopefully, like Grigsby's "War in the Pacific", this element will shine through for its purchasers.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Berkut
I don't think that is true, but I am kind of tired of the argument. I cannot get my primary PBEM opponent to even try the new FoF - he got tired of waiting for the patch, and doesn't want to have to re-learn that games PITA interface now that they have finally fixed some serious bugs months and months after release. And this is after we spent hours and horus playing it and figuring it out before.

Wow, I just don't find FOF's interface hard at all. It takes some learning, but I can't really envision an easier way to handle the fact that it lets you fully manage the contents and commanders of each Army, Corps and Division. The rest of the interface has also worked fine from Day 1 (granted it has also been improving with each update) and is a lot more streamlined than COG's.

I notice when establishing this trend you only used those two data points though. While I respect that you personally may not like those interfaces, what about our other games? Have you tried Carriers at War? Commander Europe At War? UFO: Extraterrestrial? A World Divided? I'm leaving out the re-releases of classics since the goal there was not to redesign the interface everyone already knew but to make sure the game worked on modern systems.

Regards,

- Erik

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Berkut

"This is unplayable"

What utter nonsense.

Ray (alias Lava)

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Berkut
I don't think that is true, but I am kind of tired of the argument. I cannot get my primary PBEM opponent to even try the new FoF - he got tired of waiting for the patch, and doesn't want to have to re-learn that games PITA interface now that they have finally fixed some serious bugs months and months after release. And this is after we spent hours and horus playing it and figuring it out before.

Wow, I just don't find FOF's interface hard at all. It takes some learning, but I can't really envision an easier way to handle the fact that it lets you fully manage the contents and commanders of each Army, Corps and Division. The rest of the interface has also worked fine from Day 1 (granted it has also been improving with each update) and is a lot more streamlined than COG's.

I notice when establishing this trend you only used those two data points though. While I respect that you personally may not like those interfaces, what about our other games? Have you tried Carriers at War? Commander Europe At War? UFO: Extraterrestrial? A World Divided? I'm leaving out the re-releases of classics since the goal there was not to redesign the interface everyone already knew but to make sure the game worked on modern systems.

Regards,

- Erik

FoFs interface isn't hard at all...once you figure it out. But it is a PITA until that time. And that is true of ALL interfaces - none of them are hard once you figure them out.

And it had a lot of actual problem for a while, with armies moving when you didn't want them to, remember to right click to deselect, how do I move units a long way, why didn't they go where I wanted, how did THAT corps end up traipsing through enemy territory, the window size for the army displays not scaling, etc., etc. I think you find it easy now because is is second nature to you. And it became second nature to me as well, after a while. But then me and my opponent put the game down for 6 months while it was patched, and by the time we came back...it wasn't second nature anymore.

Whether this could be better? Oh, I am pretty sure it could be. I kind of doubt that it was the best that it could possibly be, but that is because of what I am talking about - there is a lack of focus on interface design, and an acceptance of poor design by publishers. In the case of FoF, if the game used windows components, it would be much improved. I could certainly imagine a vastly improved interface for managing containers and their contents, for example. Whether that effort in design is worth it, is another question of course.

And I mentioned several, of the ones I have played. War in the Pacific is a great example. A stunning game, incredibly deep, amazing detail. And (*&(*%*&# frustrating as hell to get to do what you want it to do. You spend so much time trying to figure out how to make the game do what you want, that you don't spend enought time figuring out what the options are - you end up fighting the interface, rather than playing the game. Hey, why didn't that convoy sail? What, I overloaded it? How? Why didn't it tell me that while I was loading it? ETc., etc.

But no, I don't purchase every single wargame released, I buy those that look interesting to me, and have potential for player vs. player wargaming. And I think the lack of attention to the basics of decent design, the stuff you can get from a 10 year old book on effective and basic interface design, is really hurting this genre.

And before someone says it, I am NOT talking about purty graphics! That is another subject altogether.

[Copper]

not gonna lie.... I havent been able to delve into the game like I had hoped because the interface is so off putting. One day I'll get there, but for now it seems so daunting a task.

It's not that the games complicated, it's just the interface is so unhelpful that playing the game goes from being fun... to just down right work, at least initially.

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: Lava

ORIGINAL: Berkut

"This is unplayable"

What utter nonsense.

Ray (alias Lava)

Try quoting in context.

[TheHellPatrol]

[:(]Thank God i waited as the LAST thing i want is another PITA interface. I am not too excited about WW1 and it sounds like it would be a major headache to play like FOF's interface was to me personally. I cannot fight a game to play it anymore[&o]...life is too short. Everybody is different and i am merely expressing my experience...$35 in my pocket[8D].

[coreymas]

Can you enlighten me with the meaning of a PITA interface.
 
Cause all that is coming up in my mind is a PITIFUL interface.....
 
Corey

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: coreymas

Can you enlighten me with the meaning of a PITA interface.

Cause all that is coming up in my mind is a PITIFUL interface.....

Corey

PITA - Pain in the A$$

[coreymas]

Got it

[:D] PITIFUL - Pretty Intuitive Though Infintessimally F***ed Up Loser of an interface? [8|]

Please dont mistake this for any negative comment about the game. I could not dare to comment about a game that i do not own.

Corey

[TheHellPatrol]

[:D]...FUBAR...is another good one[;)].