The Big Ambush - Does It Work?

[Reg]

I was playing a shorter scenario as the LW a while back and I decided that I would make an attempt to totally smash the morale of the 8th AF Bomber force in one fell swoop.

I used every single available unit to make massed assaults on their formations and used the day twins and night fighters to pick off the bombers that fell out of formation. Not a single straggler made it back.

A single NJG got bounced by escorts (ouch - my bad) but I could have avoided that if I had been a bit more attentive (read that as less greedy.. [:'(]). The end result was I bagged over 200 B-17s lost which is the eqivalent of eight or so Bomber Groups destroyed. Well above any historical result.

You can imagine my surprise when the game handed victory to the Allies, mainly due to the Air Superiority factor being affected by fatigue levels and so many LW aircraft being damaged (including a fair portion of the NJG force) though actual losses wern't particularly significant. However, damaged aircraft and morale should bounce back fairly quickly after whilst destroyed aircraft will have to be replaced by green crews. (Is there any difference to morale loss when crews are lost as opposed to damaged/fatigued)???

Does anyone have an opinion of how this tactic would work in a campaign game??

[von Shagmeister]

ORIGINAL: Reg

Does anyone have an opinion of how this tactic would work in a campaign game??

Hi Reg,

As the Axis player it's a matter of doing as much damage to the Allies as possible whilst trying to limit your own losses (pilots in particular). Shooting down large numbers of bombers is of course very desireable but you must not bleed yourself dry in the process, there in lies the Axis players problem, that's what makes the game so challenging for the Axis and so much fun to play.

You have to look for opportunities to hurt the Allies for as little loss as possible ie unescorted bombers because weather has delayed fighters from taking off etc, (just like what happened with the first Schweinfurt/Regenburg raid). With the long campaign you have more time to wait for opportunities and more time to recover if you mess up or get hit hard.

[Hard Sarge]

Ahh Bite me

juist wrote a long reply on the pros and cons and what both sides need to be trying to do and it went poof !!!

oh well, you can do it, but in a long campaign, not sure if it is going to be the best way of doing it

what Galland was wanting to do, may of had some effect (but in early 45, too little too late) but in the game, the Allies do not have mothers at home worried about there boys, so a crushing loss to the Allies will only knock some units out of action for a few days/weeks

in RL, a 200 bomber loss on a mission in 1943, may of put a end to the 8ths plans of daylight bombing, in early 44 it would of hurt, but after a few heads had rolled, it would of kept on, by late 44, it would of been shugged off, in 45, it would be oh well, hit us again, you have already lost

[kaybayray]

This is a very interesting topic. I am wondering if it is even possible for the LW to win? [8D]

I would think that if you pushed R&D of the better fighters and jets and wrapped production up into just those few models that history showed were very capable you could defeat the logistical capabilities of the Allies. Just a WAG... [8D] Having never played this particular game not quite sure how the mechanics work.

Really want to play this game though. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[von Shagmeister]

In real life it would probably have been impossible for the Axis to win because the Allied Juggernaut was unstopable.

However in BTR it is possible for the Axis to win. The Allies need a certain score at the end of each month in order for the game to continue, if they fail to achieve this score the Axis win by default. The Allies win by reaching a certain score threshold (a combination of Air Superiority/Industrial Damage/Terror) which in the old game was 75 (but is presently different in the beta - I'll let Sarge decide if he wants to give the present figure).

For the Axis it is indeed possible to get advanced types into service but you have to devote considerable production resources to develop them (and have decent pilots left to fly them!).

[harley]

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

In real life it would probably have been impossible for the Axis to win because the Allied Juggernaut was unstopable.

I expect the axis could have made continuing the war unpalatable for the allies, and achieved a separate peace in the west. Of course, it depends on your definition of "win" as to whether that is winning or not. Would it have helped the long term outcome? The Russians might have ended up taking the Ruhr, then...

[Hard Sarge]

in the game, the Axis can/could win, in RL, I do not think they really ever had a chance (with everything being the same)

in the battle of the Buldge, the GE did massive damage to the US tank force, with in 2 weeks, every Tank was replaced, and every replacement came from tank parks sitting in France, not from the US

the numbers the Allies had, were unreal, Squadrons that would take off and fly missions with BG sizes, just because they had the planes and the pilots to do so, some FGs it could be a week between missions for some pilots, even though the unit was flying everyday

D-Day (IIRC) the Allies put up some 12-14000 missions, the LW put up 219 over France that day (it got nasty later on, as more units were returned to France, some good books on the subject, I think the one is Angels 14)

for all the work we have done, we are never going to get the Allied numbers right, and to be honest, the LW is always going to be stronger then it was (I do not take away units once they are in the game, we have tried to be sure that most units that came in later, but were just renamed units do not come in, but in RL, unit disbanded, were reformed, were renamed almost left and right, some were combined, some were just stripped of planes)

simple case, III/JG7 and IV/JG7 (I am sure Swift and Shaggy know who those were, anybody else)

[kaybayray]

I tend to agree that in the actual war there was no way the LW was going to stop the Allied Air Juggernaught once it had been committed to. [8D]

I was just curious as to how difficult it may be in this game for the LW to pull off a significant victory. I realize that you are building a game to be played from both aspects so I am certain you must make some concessions for game play that deviate from history on both sides. Otherwise it would limit the playability of what your are creating. [8D]

Of course I would think that how you play the game would have a big impact on potential results. For example if you play against the AI I think your chances for a significant victory would be much better on either side as opposed to playing against a Human opponant. [8D] It has been my experience the AI of any game is easy to figure out and overcome where a Human opponent is a great challenge. The AI will follow a Strategic or Tactical program protocol while the Human may pull off some surprising operations that defy Strategic or Tactical Protocol but none the less may be dramatically successful or disasterous.

I think this is a very interesting topic because the more I look at this game the more I realize the complexity inherent to it and therefore the possible pathways to victory or defeat are likely unlimited... at least to some extent. [8D]

Later All,
Cant wait to get this one loaded up and running.

KayBay