France factories

[Petiloup]

Once France is liberated the Allied is well please to see it's factories churning troops and supplies so close to the frontline. Now if we look the historical circumstance Europe was in a bad shape at the end of the war and it was not for a few years that it would recover.

I think it would be best to take out most of the factories once liberated or at least limit the multiplier to 1.

[Lebatron]

I've been thinking of limiting the French max multiplier to 2 in Uncommon Valor 2.0 for the reasons you state. France was in rough shape and to expect it to bounce back to FM3 instantly is unreasonable. Once I see how an end game goes in my newer version of Uncommon Valor I'll decide then.

In case you didn't know yet, for my update to UV I changed the 1939 French factory multiple from 0 to 1. Back in development, the French multiple was 1 in 1939, but it was discovered France could be conquered before Sp1940 under normal play. The solution to that problem is what you see now, a fixed number of troops for France. I never liked that solution, but since it worked we moved on to other issues. Shortly afterwords, I mentioned to Joel that I had an idea that would fix this problem. I told him it could work if we added bonus pop(like Germany starts with) plus put some infantry in the que. He decided we didn't have time to playtest that, and since the other solution was working it wasn't worth backing up since we already moved on to other problems. Joel was right, he had to crack the whip and maintain focus to finish the game, but I never let the idea die and recently took up the challege to really make some good changes to the Uncommon Valor scenario. It's taken a good chunk of playtesting to make France work as originally intended, but I'm happy to say that I found the right formula, so to speak, to allow UN players the option to use French factories in 1939 again.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Polonthi
Once France is liberated the Allied is well please to see it's factories churning troops and supplies so close to the frontline. Now if we look the historical circumstance Europe was in a bad shape at the end of the war and it was not for a few years that it would recover.

I think it would be best to take out most of the factories once liberated or at least limit the multiplier to 1.

Interesting observation. I think that what it really says is that the production of ALL factories should be limited to 1 after liberation. I don't think that in the late war the Russian production in liberated areas would have been anywhere near the production in east, yet in AWD liberated and repaired factories would instantly go to multiplier 3.

I'll consider how best to incorporate your observation and proposed change into Global Glory. Joel doesn't want to change the released scenarios unless there is a real problem with play or balance, so I don't see them being changed in this regard.

BTW - my recollection of the problem with French production in 1939 was the observation that there is little motivation for the French to build units instead of just pouring everything into research. The units will evaporate anyway. So way back in development the change was made to make the units "pre-built" and remove the corresponding '39 production.

I'd not be too worried about losing France in Winter '40, it means you can get FM2 a season earlier for Russia. Allies lose 5 production in France and gain 6 production in Russia. So given the choice, I still think I'd pour '39 French production into research instead of units.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

I'd not be too worried about losing France in Winter '40, it means you can get FM2 a season earlier for Russia. Allies lose 5 production in France and gain 6 production in Russia. So given the choice, I still think I'd pour '39 French production into research instead of units.

I guess first assumptions would make it seem that way, but there are several other factors that you may not have considered fully before saying a bump in Russian production outweighs the French loss in production. Here are a few things to consider if France does fall in Winter 40.

1. The Allies loss 5 production, Germany gains that production 1 turn sooner. Consider the whole spread and not just the 5 loss.
2. Germany gains several more resources.
3. Hooking up to Spain 1 turn sooner provides a bonus 10 supply and an extra 3 resources, maybe 4 with Portugal.
4. Brings in Italy 1 turn sooner, in theory. That's extra manpower, production que acceleration, more time to move forces into North Africa, etc.
5. Siam joins Japan 1 turn earlier, which is a production gain for the Japs.
6. The Russians will not always gain 6 production if France falls in Winter 40. It seems to me it would be about 50/50 that an early bump to FM2 might happen. If Russia is shy by 4 or more points then he would have to wait for his seasonly d2 WR bumps to put him at the FM2 mark. Making, it seems to me, a likely bump to FM2 during Summer40, no matter when France falls.

Basically, if you can't rely on Russia getting an early FM bump, then all the gains for the Axis make it a total windfall in their favor. And even if Russia gains the FM bump a turn earlier it still looks favorable to the Axis.

To ignore French troop buildup on turn 1 would be a mistake in Uncommon Valor 2.0. The German player would see that and roll into the Netherlands in the Fall because the Allies would lack the forces to make a decent counterattack. On turns 2 and 3 is where you would see the French have some real choices. More could be devoted to tech at the expense of a strong defense. With the US giving its 18 production on turn 3 it's not that important to use the French production on tech at this time, so a player could decide to build 4 French units a turn up until France falls to make Germany pay as much as possible for the conquest. In the stock scenarios, France can only make Militia on the last turn, so it's preferred to build tech instead. But if you had the choice to get Infantry or Arty out in time, a player may decide it's worth it to build them rather than spend all of France's last production on tech. As I already pointed out, US production on turn 3 is enough to advance all the critical techs, so French production on turns 2 and 3 would be more a matter of taste. Giving players the option of using French production makes things a lot more interesting. FM0 in 39 was a quick fix that is no longer necessary.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

Interesting observation. I think that what it really says is that the production of ALL factories should be limited to 1 after liberation. I don't think that in the late war the Russian production in liberated areas would have been anywhere near the production in east, yet in AWD liberated and repaired factories would instantly go to multiplier 3.

I was beaten to it, but I was going to point out that this would greatly upset play balance. In a Sealion campaign where AV did not happen when England fell, this would still clearly make it worthwhile to try just to keep England's production at 5 the whole game. I think I would go for Sealion every game.

In Russia I would play a lot differently too. In cases where I previously felt it was not worth it to advance, I now probably would to permanently cripple Russian production. As Japan, I might even attack Vladivostok an go no further just to keep that factory from ever reaching FM4. Without substantial changes to the game the only place that makes sense to limit recovered production is in France.