Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD?

[Mus]

With Dragoon Tactics upgrade cavalry units may continue to make fire attacks as long as they have 6 movement points. Is this intentional? It would seem the intent was for a unit to be able to move, shoot, move and not move, shoot, shoot, shoot, as is currently possible. Cavalry brigades with this upgrade turn into buzzsaws (especially w/ fast attribute + quality horses). Its pretty overpowered.

Erik or Gil?

PS I believe Oblique Fire attribute has the same effect, its just not as overpowered with infantry with their lower number of movement points.

[Drex]

I have used this to great effect with a whole Cav division. But  I don't know if it was intentional to use it as an instrument of repeated attacks.

[Gil R.]

I believe it's intentional, but Eric will have to respond once he's back from camping.

Or you can find him at the national forest in upstate Michigan, if this is urgent.

[Mus]

tried to edit and double posted.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I believe it's intentional, but Eric will have to respond once he's back from camping.

OK, If it is I will just assume its meant to make Cavalry worth the high cost and not feel bad for exploiting. It just feels pretty damn OP to be intentional. I will wait for the answer from Eric since thats too large an area to go looking.

[:D]

[ericbabe]

Dragoon Tactics are supposed to halve your movement points after you fire, and if you have more than 6 as a result you can continue to fire (noting that the reduced movement point penalty applies normally).  A cavalry with 24 movement points should be able to fire 3 times: 24 movement, 12 movement, and 6 movement.  I'd hoped that the movement penalty to fire attacks would be enough to keep this in balance as far as multiple attacks was concerned.  If a general consensus forms that this is overpowered, then I will be happy to find a way to reduce the power of this.

[Mus]

The AI doesnt take multiple shots with Dragoon Tactics.

[moose1999]

An easy solution would be to only allow two shots - or perhaps only one.
Even in the last case I think dragoon tactics would still be a valuable upgrade and it would force people to use cavalry as intended - as a get-in-and-out-fast unit.
As it is now, with dragoon tactics, I can pretty much walk up to the back or flank of any unit and rout them with two or three volleys from a cavalry unit with decent weapons, knowing they will rout and therefore not having to care about getting the hell away after firing. That makes cavalry seriously overpowered.

Actually, the more I think about it, a one-shot rule would be the best.
The dragoon upgrade would then only give the cavalry the ability to get out of trouble after firing - but that in itself is very useful and is exactly what cavalry tactics is supposed to be like in a civil war game. That's what I  think, anyway.

With the one-shot rule in effect, you could then perhaps add a buy-able unit-ability that would give the specific cavalry unit the ability to fire two times (only works after the dragoon tactics upgrade is researched, of course) or, if you want to restrict it a little, make it a training-only ability to avoid spamming. Or you could just make the dragoon-unit-upgrade very expensive, either in price or upkeep, or both.

And that was my thoughts on the subject. [:)]

[cerosenberg]

Except in special situations of Raiding or Cav vs Cav, ie  Gettysburg & Brandy Station, all CW Cav behaved as dragoons.  Namely, they rode to a site, dismounted and fought.  I do not know of a single instance where Cav was able to behave on the battlefield as the Dragoon Tactics upgrade allows.  The closest example to said upgrade was an infantry brigade, Wilder's Brigade, which equiped itself with Spencers and rode horses or mules.  The Spencer allowed for the increased firepower making the brigade seem like a division and riding for rapid movement.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Actually, the more I think about it, a one-shot rule would be the best.
The dragoon upgrade would then only give the cavalry the ability to get out of trouble after firing - but that in itself is very useful and is exactly what cavalry tactics is supposed to be like in a civil war game. That's what I  think, anyway.

Agreed, but I think you should also be able to charge after a fire attack if you have the movement points for it. This would allow you to either press your advantage or get away to safety, providing enough benefit to justify the upgrade.

Making 2-4 fire attacks a round gets obscenely OP with the higher level weapons like Spencers, using quality horses, fast attribute and forced march to milk as many volleys as possible.

PS Just to restate so it isnt missed, the AI IS NOT making multiple fire attacks with dragoon tactics/oblique fire. Its a big advantage to the human player.

[moose1999]

Agree completely on the charge thing, Mus.
After firing, the cavalry unit should have the choice of either charging or get the hell out of there (depending on remaining movement points, of course).

[ericbabe]

Thanks for the report on the AI and Dragoon Tactics -- I'll put it on my list of things to look into.

[CeltiCid]

Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD?

what is the effectiveness of this advance in quick combat? do it worth as much as in detailed battle?

[Hard Sarge]

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think

major minuss for the firing of the 2nd and 3rd shot, the main idea is to be able to move in, fire and move out, if the player does not want to follow tactics and use the move points for firing, that is up to the player (I guilty too)

also the supply burn is very high with Cav, and keeping them in place to fire off the rest of the movement points also places them in danger of being crippled

[Drex]

I don't think its something you want to do with a solo brigade.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think

Have you tested it at all? With lower level weapons it isnt too bad...

However, using quality horses, fast attribute, force march, etc to jack the movement points up as high as possible and combined with high level weapons like Spencers and up you are looking at being able to deliver 2 to 4 extremely powerful volleys into the rear flank or rear of an enemy brigade. The fact that subsequent shots have a penalty doesnt really matter since from that angle the return fire is ineffective. Supply isnt much of an issue either since you generally wont run out of supply before you break the targeted brigade and with the speed of cavalry its easy to rotate them back to supply caissons, but even if you dont want to an out of supply cav brigade still does respectable damage on a rear flank or rear attack with a good weapon. Also leaving them in a position to be counterattacked is less important since the Cav gets a bonus that reduces fire damage inflicted on it and can also dodge charges.

Im not saying its insanely overpowered in all circumstances, but with the means I outlined to increase movement points combined with the higher level weapons I think it definetely gets OP.

2 fire attacks max, or a fire attack and charge or move would be better balanced I think.

ORIGINAL: Drex

I don't think its something you want to do with a solo brigade.

Yeah. But with a Divison or a Corps of cavalry you can crush an entire wing of an opposing army. You need Cavalry Bureau upgrade to do this routinely as well.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Mus

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think

Have you tested it at all? With lower level weapons it isnt too bad...

well, I could say somethings, but I was brought up to be polite, but, in the long run, yes, I have tested it, I tested it before it was there and I tested it after it came in, parts of how it works is based on my reports on it, and this is what we came up with, can it be abused ? yeap, but there are many other parts of the game that can be abused also, and some are much worse

but got to disagree, on the once you get, idea, once you get some or all of the goodies, you can do major damage with any unit and it does not need the DT to be the monster, inf with Spencers can be just as nasty, plus there are better weapons out there, add in the right attachments, and they are even more deadly


However, using quality horses, fast attribute, force march, etc to jack the movement points up as high as possible and combined with high level weapons like Spencers and up you are looking at being able to deliver 2 to 4 extremely powerful volleys into the rear flank or rear of an enemy brigade. The fact that subsequent shots have a penalty doesnt really matter since from that angle the return fire is ineffective. Supply isnt much of an issue either since you generally wont run out of supply before you break the targeted brigade and with the speed of cavalry its easy to rotate them back to supply caissons, but even if you dont want to an out of supply cav brigade still does respectable damage on a rear flank or rear attack with a good weapon. Also leaving them in a position to be counterattacked is less important since the Cav gets a bonus that reduces fire damage inflicted on it and can also dodge charges.

Im not saying its insanely overpowered in all circumstances, but with the means I outlined to increase movement points combined with the higher level weapons I think it definetely gets OP.

2 fire attacks max, or a fire attack and charge or move would be better balanced I think.

ORIGINAL: Drex

I don't think its something you want to do with a solo brigade.

Yeah. But with a Divison or a Corps of cavalry you can crush an entire wing of an opposing army. You need Cavalry Bureau upgrade to do this routinely as well.

and with one of my Armies, I can crush the opposing army, with or with out using the DT, so what is the point ?, for me, Entrenchment is a much better train

[Gil R.]

ORIGINAL: Mus

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think

Have you tested it at all? With lower level weapons it isnt too bad...

well, I could say somethings, but I was brought up to be polite, but, in the long run, yes, I have tested it, I tested it before it was there and I tested it after it came in, parts of how it works is based on my reports on it, and this is what we came up with, can it be abused ? yeap, but there are many other parts of the game that can be abused also, and some are much worse

[/quote]


Has Hard Sarge tested it? Mus, Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Has Hard Sarge tested it? Mus, Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.

What I was really trying to ask was how recently he had looked at it, thinking maybe something had changed since he examined it closely last.

Its all well and good to claim it isnt as overpowered as it may seem, or that there are other combinations that are even more powerful. If thats the case lets hear them.

All I see with DT Cav is a unit that can zip around a battlefield at a high speed and deliver multiple volleys into the rear flank or rear of an enemy brigade and suffer little damage from return fire because of the angle and cavalry bonus. On top of that the AI isnt utilizing it very well so it tends to stack things further in favor of a human player.

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, I could say somethings, but I was brought up to be polite, but, in the long run, yes, I have tested it, I tested it before it was there and I tested it after it came in, parts of how it works is based on my reports on it, and this is what we came up with, can it be abused ? yeap, but there are many other parts of the game that can be abused also, and some are much worse

but got to disagree, on the once you get, idea, once you get some or all of the goodies, you can do major damage with any unit and it does not need the DT to be the monster, inf with Spencers can be just as nasty, plus there are better weapons out there, add in the right attachments, and they are even more deadly

Sorry. I didnt mean to start off on the wrong foot and offend you with that question. I know you are a beta tester so obviously you *have* tested things. What I was wondering was how recently you had tested this specific aspect of the game, because to me it seems almost self evidently overpowered.

I can do more damage with other combinations in a single volley, particularly morale loss, but nothing else has this kind of speed and damage from multiple volleys in combination.

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

and with one of my Armies, I can crush the opposing army, with or with out using the DT, so what is the point ?, for me, Entrenchment is a much better train

Well the point was that 3-4 or more brigades of Cavalry upgraded as I described seem capable of causing havoc completely out of proportion to the investment involved. Not just that, but once they have crushed a bunch of enemy units cavalry can more easily pursue and capture them.

If you know of more powerful combinations then by all means share. Im pretty hardcore as a gamer so I love crunching numbers and analyzing this kinda crap in detail.

Entrenchment is certainly really good as a defensive measure combined with hardy or slaves, but what infantry or artillery combination is comparable to DT Cav in the offense?

[Gil R.]

ORIGINAL: Mus

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Has Hard Sarge tested it? Mus, Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.

What I was really trying to ask was how recently he had looked at it, thinking maybe something had changed since he examined it closely last.

That's always possible, though I don't think Eric has had reason to touch this particular code recently.