Western Europe Mod?

[Historiker]

Does there already exist a mod(project) for Europa - not only the meditarnean?

I think about a mod that has the size from the US-Eastcoast to the Cruzon-line and from Northern Norway to Afrika.
This would allow an attempt the landing in England, the sub-warefare against Britain, the weak italian situation on the Balkan and in Afrika...
The Russians shall not take place as the land warefare cannot be historical correct...

[DuckofTindalos]

No.

[m10bob]

Terminus has always been long-winded.[:D]

[Historiker]

lol

Anyone interested in creating such a mod?

[el cid again]

Two significant technical issues:

a) Hard coded slots. This is less a problem for a different date set because you can use War Plan Orange - but for WWII dates you have too many slots that will behave unpredictably in the location file.

b) Not enough slots to represent the vast land forces in ETO. Not nearly enough unless you change the scale and make corps the normal unit - and even then really not enough.

[Dili]

One of the problems with that mod and the Eastern Mod is that the games cripples the number of devices and aircrafts for Japanese/Axis. This game was propose build to Pacific War and nothing more. Even for Mediterranean there are some cut decisions to make. Maybe some will still appreciate a game that way.

[el cid again]

Games are all about compromises. But WITP is not the ideal platform to compromise with for these matters.
If you want a WITP form that is less a problem, use WPO - although you must then live with bad dates.
At least the hard code is swept away (by and large).

Otherwise, a different foundation will serve better. Nevertheless, if you are a master of compromise, something might be done that works out well. It would take man years to do it properly.

[Historiker]

I've tried to enhance the WitM Mod. There I found out, that there might be only a limited number of slots, but one can add more plane types. If new squadroons already have them and the planes needn't be produces because they get reinforcements, they can be added. Isn't that correct?
So for a Mod in Europe, one simply has to add the "rare" plane types like the Fw 200 or the Me 163 in this way.
Together with house rules that consider this, it shall be possible to add some more types, right?

The scenario itself would be very intersting. England has to ship all the raw materials from USA and Afrika, the US Troops have to be sailed over the Ocean, too and if you add a Base north of Norway with important ressources, you can simulate the convoys to Russia, too.
Germany itself would have to descide wheater to concentrate on Afrika or try to invade Britain, while the British get more and more 4e Bombers to threaten the German Industry...

[el cid again]

I don't understand what you mean by add types? Unless you can add slots - and we cannot do that - you are limited
to using empty slots (if there are any) or getting rid of something.

Further - it isn't just plane slots that are a problem. You lack the slots to do the land units. Severely so for the Axis.

Now what you might do is go the way of a theater - like War in the Atlantic - and limit yourself to islands and coasts.
Something like that might be feasible - slot wise. It would not address the fact slots have hard code in them saying something that makes sense (maybe) in WITP - but would wholly mess you up in your other area.

[Historiker]

What I mean (sorry for my limited amount of words ) is, that you can add - as far as my experience is - more Planes than usual. They don't appear in the list of the aircraft replacement pool and you can't upgrade to them - as far as I have seen - but you can add them! They only appear in the database list of aircraft opend by the button on the upper left side.
Normally, you would not have any use of them, as you can't upgrade them and as they can't be produced by german.
BUT - if you add a unit equipped by them (as they are possible to choose in the editor) to the reinforcement list, they are in the game - even if their type of planes doesn't appear in aircraft replacement pool list!
When you have edited the file, that they get replacement, this will also not be seen - but it comes! I've testet it!
With this way, it shall be possible to add planes that were only used in small numbers and throughout the war, without using any slot!

Perhaps, I've made a mistake, as I'm new to the editor, but this is what I think to have found out

Using this (if it really works) might enable the adding of aircraft that would have to stinted for not wasting slots, i.e. the Me 163. In a Europe Mod, you simply let some units appear with this plane in 1944/45. The lacking ability of upgrading other units to same may be included as a part of realism. The lacking possibility to destroy the production of this aircraft is also no problem according to the historcal facts, as u simply consider them being built subsurface. Also, the only effort of the allied bombing was to reduce the amount of fuel being produced, everything else was produced more than before, when the allied bombing reached it's height.
No go on, not only the Me 163... The He 162... It was mostly produced of wood in cabinetmaker's workshops, so you can't really destroy its assembly (except the engine, of course). As the plane was not really good to fly, no normal units would be converted to this type, even if it's pure dates might be good. It was planned that Hitlerjungen (parts of the Hitler Youth) should fly it. So you simply add new units flying this type, where you can also make it historical akkurate by giving them very little flying abilities...

You see what I mean?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Does there already exist a mod(project) for Europa - not only the meditarnean?

WHY would you want one. WITP's land combat/movement system is one of it's "weakest links". What would be the point of importing it into a generally ground/air theatre like Western Europe?

[Dili]

that you can add - as far as my experience is - more Planes than usual

 
Can you explain this? there are only 249 slots for aircrafts models. The first 75 is for Japanese(Axis). All are production able.
 
I think you are making confusion with devices. There are a couple hundred non production slots devices.
 
 

If you want a WITP form that is less a problem, use WPO - although you must then live with bad dates.

 
I dont know WPO but i doubt it has radar for example.

[el cid again]

I can explain what he means - I think. In fact, we do it in RHS to a very limited degree - some obscure Axis aircraft are actually added using ALLIED slots. You cannot produce any - nor can you upgrade to them - but you can use them in a unit - and a unit using them can upgrade to another type. A big issue is they will also never replace - no matter that there are replacemnt planes.

As for WPO and radar - they only didn't implement radar - it is still there hard code wise - exactly the same slots.

[Dili]

okay, thanks. That might turn handy for WITM.

[Historiker]

Why do guys develope mods for a game, which will simply imitate another game?
I don't own WPO and I'm not interested in spending another 60 Euro for a game that looks simply like witp 20 years earlier...

[Historiker]

You are right!
I don't know where's the problem, but I used not used slots for my own designed planes. I can't explain why they didn't show up in the aircraft pool, but they where from slots 1-75...


Moreover, I don't see any problems with the slots!
This mod would focus on the sea- and airwarfare, too. If the allies manage to land and to hold this point long enough to reinforce the beachhead, the war will be lost as it was in history.
If the Axis manage to land in England in 1941, England is lost as well...
The main question would be, whether one side achievs in landing on the other sides Island/Kontinent.
Why would one need millions of slots for that? One might simply gave a total division one unit, as it is in witp. The slots will be more than enough then - I see no problem there.

The question of the mod woud be:
- where to concentrate? Landings in England with the Home Fleet threatening them or reinforcing the weak italiens to conquer Afrika?
- Building the Z-Plan oder subs to threaten the British (as both units would be in the list, but not enough naval yards to built both.
- The British will have to bring to their Island most of their Supplies, that can be endangerd by german and italien Planes and Ships. Their american bought weapons will have to be shipped too (as units), as the US Troops.

As the allied troops get very strong, the mod will not concentrate on a land war, because axis will get defeated by a full enemy landing as the british will be by a successful german landing - it will more concentrate on threatening enemy convois (US to UK, Narvik to Germany and Italy to Afrika) and the Bombing of enemy Ressources and Industry.
With the the production and air war systems of witp, I would consider this very interesting, not only of the german air units, which I - as german - want to see in this game

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Why do guys develope mods for a game, which will simply imitate another game?
I don't own WPO and I'm not interested in spending another 60 Euro for a game that looks simply like witp 20 years earlier...

Why not develop on a proper platform? It would cost money and time to learn it.

WPO IS the WITP platform with some of the problems removed - and with a more intelligent intercept routine - and probably a few other things like that. IF you want the WITP mechanics to WORK - you pretty much need to use it UNLESS you do a mod in PTO because that is pretty much hard wired into WITP.

Ideally - and in future - games will be soft coded. WITP is semi-hard coded - not ideal for modders. Sorry.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

You are right!
I don't know where's the problem, but I used not used slots for my own designed planes. I can't explain why they didn't show up in the aircraft pool, but they where from slots 1-75...


Moreover, I don't see any problems with the slots!
This mod would focus on the sea- and airwarfare, too. If the allies manage to land and to hold this point long enough to reinforce the beachhead, the war will be lost as it was in history.
If the Axis manage to land in England in 1941, England is lost as well...
The main question would be, whether one side achievs in landing on the other sides Island/Kontinent.
Why would one need millions of slots for that? One might simply gave a total division one unit, as it is in witp. The slots will be more than enough then - I see no problem there.

The question of the mod woud be:
- where to concentrate? Landings in England with the Home Fleet threatening them or reinforcing the weak italiens to conquer Afrika?
- Building the Z-Plan oder subs to threaten the British (as both units would be in the list, but not enough naval yards to built both.
- The British will have to bring to their Island most of their Supplies, that can be endangerd by german and italien Planes and Ships. Their american bought weapons will have to be shipped too (as units), as the US Troops.

As the allied troops get very strong, the mod will not concentrate on a land war, because axis will get defeated by a full enemy landing as the british will be by a successful german landing - it will more concentrate on threatening enemy convois (US to UK, Narvik to Germany and Italy to Afrika) and the Bombing of enemy Ressources and Industry.
With the the production and air war systems of witp, I would consider this very interesting, not only of the german air units, which I - as german - want to see in this game

Those of us who have done monster games can say that - War In Europe - is the biggest monster game of all.
Probably no military operation ever had more land units - never mind air units - to simulate. We truly lack the slots to be difinitive and do justice to it. But it DOES sound as if you want to leave the Eastern Front out - and that eats 2/3 of the German/Axis units and the largest Allied army of all.

The problem with that is

Leaving the USSR out of the war makes even less sense in ETO than it does in PTO. The Axis would not have to worry about the Russians. The Allies would not have to feed the Russians to keep them in the war either. It is a difficult issue: leave em out and you have some other war - different strategies and objectives; put em in and you have big time problems with unit counts.

[Historiker]

Is it possible, to let units vanish at a predefined date? If yes, one can simulate the german army getting weaker fighting the russians. Otherwise, one must make the House rule, that the army must be set "allow replacements" and simply let it upgrade to weaker units - which may as well simulate the Wehrmacht fighting the Russians.
And yes, I would leave the Russians outside, because I think, that simulating the eastern front isn't possible with witp.
But as I said, I would think about creating a "russian port" with essential ressources, that coerce the allied player to sail there - which would simulate the convois to russia. Of course, this port must not be conquerd by germany, but one could think about allowing to bomb it.
Having this "russian port" norway really makes sense, together with the ore in narvik (that simulates the swedish ore), Norway gets really important. Having no land bridge, the allied player may conquer it earlier than landing on the continent, which may be a really interesting option...

Having no Russians is really no problem, if you let units vanish oder upgrad to less good ones, The game is to be considerd won, if the allies didn't manage to land succesfull in Europe until it's end...

[el cid again]

There is no mechanism to permit units to be withdrawn - even if a player wanted to do that.

The mechanism to upgrade to worse units is not feasible - it does not occur on a predictable enough basis. And it contradicts the fundamental truth that older tanks will be replaced by newer ones, etc.

Not having Russia in the game means that 2/3 of the German forces should be elminated - or the players will have far too much to throw at the West. Since units moved back and forth between fronts, this becomes very hard to set up properly.

Having a Russian port does not force the Allies to use it. Why send stuff there? If you do - why send more than you have to send? The rational for the war at sea disappears. And you need two ports - one representing Iran - one the Archangelsk run. And you seem to be ignoring the Baltic and Black Seas - but they are anything but ignored by real Axis naval operations.

One begins to wonder what is the point - leaving so much out? Whatever it is, it isn't a simulation of the ETO situation.
Not to put too fine a point on it, the USSR won the War in Europe. It did so without much help either: lend lease was at no point more than 10% of Russian production, although some things were significant (the Russians didn't make trucks, but they surely could have done if we didn't or couldn't send any). Keeping Russia in the war was a really big deal for the Western Allies - and if it didn't happen they faced at least twice as many enemy units - probably more. Unless you find a way to structure the Western Allies to NEED to keep the Soviets in the war - and unless you can find a way to simulate the impact of Eastern Front operations on the overall war - you cannot know what the situation would be in ETO in fact?