Oil change in new patch?

[YohanTM2]

I read that the developers are planning to up the oil consumption of some units but offset by increasing the value of the Caucus and Mid-East fields.

If they do this without significantly upping Germany's initial oil it is a big mistake.

Every game playing PBEM or TCP/IP the German's run low on oil, unless you way underbuild armor and air versus historical and have almost no uboats.

I would really like to understand who is playtesting this game well into 1944 and thinks this makes sense. Fact is, we are the playtesters as this game was really released in Beta and this change does not make sense.

[firepowerjohan]

There seems to be a missunderstanding. All oil fields will increase their output (from 3x to 4x) not just Caucasus and Mid East. So, for Axis the Romanian Ploesti field will compensate increased oil consumption.

[Bossy573]

Having now played many games against the AI as both sides, the best option, IMHO, is to make the oil fields worth more. That leaves the Axis with the (exciting and challenging) imperative to capture the oil in Southern Russia. In fact, I would take Persia and Iraq out of play and make the Caucusus and Ploesti more important.

[firepowerjohan]

Yes, the idea is a greater bonus for Axis if managing to capture the enemy oil fields, while no worse situation for them if they fail so a win-even situation for Axis.

[Hard Sarge]

LOL

and as I have said before, I don't think you guys have even played your own game, old game, you could take every oil field on the map, and it didn't give the GE a boost to there Oil supplies

(don't take me the wrong way, the improvements sound good) [:-]

Still think you are going about it the wrong way, with out the Allied bombing of the Oil Fields and the USSR taking away the Oil Fields the Axis had, the GE shouldn't have major Oil troubles, the trouble should come from the hands of the Allies

[Bossy573]

Against the AI, I initially had huge trouble managing oil as the Axis. Typically I would run out during a big push in Russia in say 1942. I solved that by building more foot slogging infantry, less armor and keeping my operations logically balanced (which is more historically to the point BTW. The German Army was primarily infantry and horses to the end.
As it stands, I love having to forgo Moscow and Perm for Rostov and the Caucusus. I do wish the AI would make a better fight of it down there. The Axis has a loooooong, vulnerable flank just begging to be pushed in.

I guess the one thing you want to guard against is making Germany too strong. They did lose after all. [;)]

[firepowerjohan]

Bossy, how many Armour units did you have for Axis at your peak?

[Bossy573]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Bossy, how many Armour units did you have for Axis at your peak?

Well, before I learned how the game played, I was building armor at almost a 1:1 ratio with infantry. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but there were "super-tanks" all over Russia. [:D]

Lately, depending how the game is going, I start Barbarossa with 4 to 6 armor, 1-2 in the north (with a leader), 2-3 in the center (with a leader) and 1 in the south (no leader). Usually 2 motorized infantry (1 each center and south) and 3 airfleets (2 fighters, 1 tac. air). I usually have the Italian armor and motorized infantry units in southern Russia as well (1 each). The rest is infantry. With continuous operations and having to fight the Allies off in the west (all infantry in France), I start to feel the oil squeeze by late 1941.

Usually I will build more armor later, but by then the campaign has been decided, one way or another.

[firepowerjohan]

Ok, with patch the Ploesti with size 5 give 20 (4x5) oil instead of 15 (3x5) and Armour will use +1 oil so at 5 armour units this will break even. Furthermore, the new +1 will come through a tech so for a while you will have your +5 from Ploesti and still Armour at normal consumption so we can make the oil abit friendlier for Axis by setting the tech oil consumption in later armour levels.

[Bossy573]

Can't wait to see how it plays out. [:)]

[Tordenskiold]

It should also be considered that Germany produced a lot of synthetic oil to compensate for the low supply of real oil. Thus it should be considered to link the General research level to the ability to produce synthetic oil. I also agree on making the oil sources more worth, since it has a clear strategic impact on gameplay and is also correct IMO.

[firepowerjohan]

ORIGINAL: Tordenskiold

It should also be considered that Germany produced a lot of synthetic oil to compensate for the low supply of real oil. Thus it should be considered to link the General research level to the ability to produce synthetic oil. I also agree on making the oil sources more worth, since it has a clear strategic impact on gameplay and is also correct IMO.

Already in game [:)]
As you get industry tech your war effort % go up. War Effort affects both Production and Oil generation so you could say that synthetic oil is abstracted into the industry tech.

[Bossy573]

ORIGINAL: Tordenskiold

Thus it should be considered to link the General research level to the ability to produce synthetic oil.

I think it is as industrial research does pay small dividends (if I read the manual correctly). Perhaps because it is such a key component of the game it would be better served as its own tech tree.


It is pretty clear that the "correct" play balance in this game is both subjective and unbelievably difficult. And I thought I had a tough job.............

[YohanTM2]

Thanks FPJ, but the issue is, even if oil upgrades are balanced with extra production Germany is too short of oil right now.
 
Get your playtesters to play into '44 a few times with a well balanced German army and you should see this effect.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Ok, with patch the Ploesti with size 5 give 20 (4x5) oil instead of 15 (3x5) and Armour will use +1 oil so at 5 armour units this will break even. Furthermore, the new +1 will come through a tech so for a while you will have your +5 from Ploesti and still Armour at normal consumption so we can make the oil abit friendlier for Axis by setting the tech oil consumption in later armour levels.

and still not sure how that is going to help, the AXIS do not start with Ploesti and by they time they do get it, they should already have gotten the tech increase

[firepowerjohan]

Hard Sarge, no the tech increase will come in later than Romania joins. It can be easily regulated by fitting it into the tech tree in the right spot i.e closer to the end. In the research detail screen you can read what the different levels do to your units. Here are the Armour technologies and where their oil consumption increase is

Armour Tech Area
- Blitzkrieg 6 levels (+1 oil at lvl 2)
- Armour 6 levels (+1 oil at lvl 4)
- Tank Destroyers 6 levels

So currently a no tech armour will have its start consumption of 3 oil while a max tech armour will have 3+1+1=5. For patch another +1 oil will be placed in one of these 3 tech making the no tech armour still 3 oil but the full tech one 3+1+1+1=6 oil. Since I have not placed the new +1 oil into the tech tree yet, it is impossible to determine when it will come though and the intent is not at all that it should arrive before Romania but instead much later (which solves abit of the trouble ppl have with Axis running out of oil too soon) [;)]

Easily, this new +1 oil could be set at Tank Destroyer lvl6 for example which means you will likley get it in 1944 and have the whole game with +5 oil from Ploesti without any increased consumption.

The idea is that this effect should come in pretty late to help Axis abit so I recon it can be placed somewhere at lvl3-lvl4 somewhere in any of the 3 mentioned technologies arriving roughly in 1942-1943

[YohanTM2]

I would put it at level 6 Armor

[VonManteuffel]

I agree thet the current oil consumption rule gives the Axis little chance to win.

If you buy all leg infantry, you will have enough oil, but you will run out of manpower and won't have enough offensive punch.
If you buy a few tanks and air, you will run out of oil. If you use your fleet, you will run out even faster. In PBEM games where I have conceded the ground and given up all the oil on the map, the Axis is so stretched out from taking it that they end up in a strategic dilemma.

My current feeling is that in PBEM the oil consumption is severely unbalanced. It could be that I'm just bad at the game, but I can't see a competent Axis player having any chance against a competent Allied player right now.

[Vypuero]

Actually I calculated the imports of oil from Ploesti into the starting Oil of the Germans, and they have off-map Oil capacity (11 Germany, 1 Italy) for the synthetic and home crude oil.
 
Personally I still think the axis has too much advantage and I dont think the oil should be changed.

[Bossy573]

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Actually I calculated the imports of oil from Ploesti into the starting Oil of the Germans, and they have off-map Oil capacity (11 Germany, 1 Italy) for the synthetic and home crude oil.

Personally I still think the axis has too much advantage and I dont think the oil should be changed.

It sucks when the Russians are steamrolling you and you can't get your panzers out of a fix because they are out of oil. But I do agree and if I'm in that situation anyway it is pretty much over save the crying.