Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Commander – Europe at War Gold is the first in a series of high level turn based strategy games. The first game spans WW2, allowing players to control the axis or allied forces through the entire war in the European Theatre.
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by JudgeDredd »

targul
I too dislike squares but hexes really dont make a better it only makes it look different
targul

I have to disagree here. Hexes don't just make the game look different, there are tactical advantages/disadvantages that hexes have over squares.

Also, you talk about "ahistorical" units...I mean, we are dealing with counters here...representing armies...not detailed OOBs!

And one other thing, you are stating some very good points, but seriously, I think you need to "rethink" this historical crusade you seem to be on.

I personally don't want to play a game where the outcome is the same. I fail to see any benefit whatsoever in playing a game where the outcome is pretty much signed, sealed and delivered. I would much rather see ahistorical benefits/handicaps to either side to make the game a challenge and unpredictable from both sides.

I see your point that the Allies is a no-winner in head to head. I don't know. I haven't played h2h and nor have I played as allies yet, but I do know that the Allied AI kicked my backside. Now I might not be very good at the game, but the point it, it's already a challenge for me...which just proves the fact that what satisfies one doesn't satisfy the other.

Like I said, some of you points are valid and put forward effectively and I agree whole heartedly with them, but I take issue with you with these points. Not everyone wants to relive history in a game. I used to get more than a little wound up when someone in the IL2 (a great flight sim game) forums used to say insert WWII aircraft name here wasn't correctly modeled...it was 3 rivets short on each wing!!

I just hope they don't make a fun game a excruciating history lesson. I have all the books I need and I did all the research I needed to on WWII...I don't need a computer game to tell it to me again!
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by targul »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
targul
I too dislike squares but hexes really dont make a better it only makes it look different
targul

I have to disagree here. Hexes don't just make the game look different, there are tactical advantages/disadvantages that hexes have over squares.

Also, you talk about "ahistorical" units...I mean, we are dealing with counters here...representing armies...not detailed OOBs!

And one other thing, you are stating some very good points, but seriously, I think you need to "rethink" this historical crusade you seem to be on.

I personally don't want to play a game where the outcome is the same. I fail to see any benefit whatsoever in playing a game where the outcome is pretty much signed, sealed and delivered. I would much rather see ahistorical benefits/handicaps to either side to make the game a challenge and unpredictable from both sides.

I see your point that the Allies is a no-winner in head to head. I don't know. I haven't played h2h and nor have I played as allies yet, but I do know that the Allied AI kicked my backside. Now I might not be very good at the game, but the point it, it's already a challenge for me...which just proves the fact that what satisfies one doesn't satisfy the other.

Like I said, some of you points are valid and put forward effectively and I agree whole heartedly with them, but I take issue with you with these points. Not everyone wants to relive history in a game. I used to get more than a little wound up when someone in the IL2 (a great flight sim game) forums used to say insert WWII aircraft name here wasn't correctly modeled...it was 3 rivets short on each wing!!

I just hope they don't make a fun game a excruciating history lesson. I have all the books I need and I did all the research I needed to on WWII...I don't need a computer game to tell it to me again!

I did not say I like squares I dont but they do not make or break a game by any means.

As to your historical argument. If you cant win as Axis/Allies using the same units, economics and politics as was in the real war then you did not win. You may have won some fantasy world war but not what was happening in WWII.

Just because I wish to use the historical OOB, economics and political situation during the war does not mean I must make the same moves economically and politically or militarily so the outcome will always be different. I do not understand why people think there must be a fantasy OOB and other things to make a good war game of WWII. Not once did I say the outcome must be the same.

My suggestion if you really like pure fantasy is try Making History they dont even try to use anything close because they say the are Making History. Problem lies for me is you are not doing anything to history in any wargame unless the parameters of that game attempt to make up what really existed at the time.

I play CWIE and that game attempts to simulate WWII but again it does so from historical OOB's with economics and politics. It is a huge game that takes many months to play. I have found the Axis wins about 1/3 of the time by using better tactics/economics/political methods then the Allies. I have also seen the Axis be creamed in 42.

There is no balancing to the game it is purely an attempt at a historical recreation of WWII. It is not prefect no game is but what I am attempting to explain here is you do not need to ignore history to have a good WWII game. But IMO if you ignore history in setting up the parameters of a WWII game you only have fantasy and when I want to play fantasy wars I play Civ-Conquests which does an awesome job at that.




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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by Vypuero »

what is CWIE?
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by targul »

Computer War in Europe another game I play with purely historical data which is at squad level individual tanks, squads and air is Campaign in North Africa.  That game takes about 2 years to complete a game if you play all the time.  Game overs entire African operations.
 
 
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by JudgeDredd »

We'll have to agree to disagree then purely on this statement...
ORIGINAL: targul
...I do not understand why people think there must be a fantasy OOB and other things to make a good war game of WWII.
You fail to understand why people think there must be (and I didn't suggest there must be) a fantasy OOB and other things to make a good war game of WWII
and
I fail to understand why you think there must be a strict OOB and other things to make a good war game of WWII.
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by IrishGuards »

CWiE and WiE are not exactly historical OOB .. When you are dealing with a game thats gotta be 30 years old .. 6000 pieces and 3000 hrs of minimul playing time ... This is a massive .. or monster game ..
Why .. because the Air and Naval War is abstractly strategic ... [:'(]

Anyone who experienced this game or for that matter a game of such sheer magnitude would be overwhelmed if they are not very a very experienced wargamer ...
GDW tried to make Europa .. what an unbelieveable accomplishment that would have been .. yet I dont want to micro-manage to that degree .. machine gun demi - brigades ..

That said a OOB that gives too many pointy units to either side is unbalanced .. theres a very fine line here ..

I think the best approach would be to start w basic and then expand on any game that has playability .. flexability and adaptability ..
IDG
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by targul »

"I fail to understand why you think there must be a strict OOB and other things to make a good war game of WWII."
 
Simply I prefer to play the most realistic WWII games possible. I dont care who wins or loses.  The Allies won we know that.  If they within the parimeters of WWII you can compare your victory verses the real thing.  If you fail to abide by any parameters you are simply playing a wargame and it would really be best to not call it WWII since you dont want to use its reality.  We can call those games Tactics II from the old Avalon Hills days.  Game was a wargame but not of any war so they didnt call it WWII.
 
"Why .. because the Air and Naval War is abstractly strategic ... [:'(] "
 
True but that is being corrected in the new verison that is being worked on.  It does have the correct number of divisions and brigade though.  Also the totals for air wings is correct.  Navy is done poorly but like I said nothing is perfect or ever will be.
 
Also I mentions Campaign in North Africa another favorite game of mine.  It is correct in all respects but does take more time to complete then CWIE or WIE.
 
Since I have complete hundreds of CWIE against dozens of different players I find many players can and do play CWIE. I know I still am playing games of it.
 
No such thing as too many pointed units there is correct number as in the war and the incorrect number as in some strange fantasy war.  Nothing is perfect but we dont need to settle for worst just to make it easy for the Axis.
 
One of the easiest things to design in a game is the correct number of units.  We know how many corps and of what types there were so put them in the game.  The difficult parts are combat effectiveness, politics, economics etc.  These are not simple they are conceptual.  They are very difficult to know for sure so lets get the one thing we do know correct.
Jim

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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by JudgeDredd »

Well I just hope they don't break it on this quest for realism. The bloody game is fun as is, without counting rivets
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by IrishGuards »

Ire was ere ..
IG
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by SMK-at-work »

gotto agree with Targul here - if you're not using historical info they you're not simulating WW2 - you're simulating something like WW2.
 
there's nothing particularly wrong with that and it can be a good game....but it is WW2 based....or some such nomenclature....for those of use who want to be picky about it! :)
 
I see no reason at all why a WW2 based game MUST have a fantasy OOB to be good - IMO if it requires that then it is somehow deficient in its processes.  Again it can still be a good game, but an "accurate" OOB with "accurate" processes would be just as good.....and have the aded advantage of "accuracy".
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by IrishGuards »

Most canna play with 1 or the other .. so whats the pointy ..
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by SMK-at-work »

The point is there's no real reason why they shouldn't be both![8|]
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by heroes99 »

I dont mind playing a historical battle if both side has equal chance of winning but if it is create such a way that one side always will win coz it has to follow strictly history then what is the fun in that

I want to play as a Commander in Chief to turn things around and probably changing history ...

Cheers


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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by SMK-at-work »

Depends how you define winning - for me having Berlin still in German hands in December of 1945 would be a win - even if Germany has no chance of actually winning the war per se.
 
For lots of people tho that's not good enough - the poor shallow creatures can't take "reality" and have to have some chance of Germany defeating all and sundry[:D][:D]
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by heroes99 »

Yep that how I play wargames , I dont mind winning or losing but not losing coz I am lousy at it , it is due that " look here you cant win because history said so " and by mnimize your loss , you are consider the winner , that I cannot accept

Like someone posted here if I want history lesson , I can spend my money on books and DVDs

Cheers [:)][:)]
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by targul »

Yep that is a definite win for me. If you beat what happen in history against what pretty much existed in history you are a true winner.
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by IrishGuards »

AAR on Paris vs Yohan ...
 
Paris 8 Factor corps with entrench 8 ... 66 % Eff .. white ..
 
German Attack ,,,,
1 Ftr .. 10 .. 84 % Eff ..bombs Paris .... no damage to Paris .. Ftr takes 1 ..
1 Tac .. 9 .. 83 % Eff ... 2 damage to paris ... and corps goes orange ...
2 Inf corps .. Both 10 .. 75 % Eff .. Kill Paris no damage to Inf .. [&o]
 
So ... for 1 damage to Ftr .. Paris falls .... and corps had 8 entrench .... Just doesnt seem realistic ..
I can only wonder what the brethren thinks ... [:'(]
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by targul »

Me thinks the entrenchments is valueless.  You find them without value whereever you have them. 
 
I am finding you are better to attack then entrench.  By attacking you may gain effiency but by defending you will surely die once you are attacked.
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RE: Entrenchments .. and ZOC

Post by YohanTM2 »

I would like to suggest that FTRs cannot impact the entrenchment or effectiveness of ground units. But to help FTRs they need to be able to come to the aid of one of their own FTRs if it has already been attacked by an enemy air unit.
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