Supply Tutorial - #9

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Feature Request: Show supply    Severity: High

A function which shows all current 'in supply' hexes.  Just a button to darken hexes so you can determine current supply status would be incredibly helpful.  Of course you want to show supply both offensively and defensively when toggling this type of overlay.

Just noticed that you weren't using such a function in the tutorials, when it seems such a natural function to automate. 

The unit markers are useful, but don't paint the picture in a complete way.  I often complain when I make mistakes in supply simply because I couldn't tell in any obvious way what my supply status is.  The pacific map is considerably complex with Japans network of ports providing coastal supply.

The problem is that determining supply takes time. Doing it for all units on land is one thing, but calculating it for every land hex on the map is a lot more.

As a replacement solution, you can move a unit and immediately have its supply status updated. This also explains why showing in-supply hexes dynamically is so time consuming. A moving HQ can affect the suppy status for a lot of hexes if it is part of a chain of supply. Moving a unit so it cuts a supply link can have the same effect (or 'repairing' a supply link). I worry about the time to keep the units' status up-to-date. Doing the same for the whole map, seems too time consuming.

[wosung]

What about showing only the in-supply-hexes in that part of the map just viewed?

Or an undo-button for testing supply validity by just moving the unit? Will the undo-button from CWIF be taken over?

Perhaps the texts in the tutorial could be even more structured by highlightening some keywords with bold letters, italics.

The tutorial is not planned as a substitute to the RAW? Because tutorials newbee-friendly descriptive style at the same time makes it difficult to extract information quickly.

Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wosung

1 What about showing only the in-supply-hexes in that part of the map just viewed?

2 Or an undo-button for testing supply validity by just moving the unit? Will the undo-button from CWIF be taken over?

3 Perhaps the texts in the tutorial could be even more structured by highlightening some keywords with bold letters, italics.

4 The tutorial is not planned as a substitute to the RAW? Because tutorials newbee-friendly descriptive style at the same time makes it difficult to extract information quickly.

Regards

1 - I thought about that. Maybe.

2 - The undo command from CWIF (which is what MWIF has presently) I am uncertain about. Moving a unit can easily affect the supply status of other units (on the same side or opposing side, same major power or allied major powers). I am not sure that the Undo command prevents players from cheatnig to get more units in supply than should be possible.

3 - Highlighting and Keywords require a more elaborate formatting system than what I have coded so far. I don't think the gain is worth the work.

4 - Correct. For the reason you give.

[bredsjomagnus]

How about making it possible to check the supply status for a single hex that you mayby want to move to but that you are uncertin if you have supply there or not? A right click menu perhaps?
 
/Magnus

[wosung]

Practically every strategy game I know, which had been released without an undo button, had to patch this later due to forum feedback.

Plus, WIF's strict playing phase sequence per se isn't very intuitive, as most strategy game players tend to plan their operations geographically, not sequencially.

W/o undo this might be even harder to swallow. I know, alternatively, one can save every subphase. I routinely do this playing around with CWIF, as its undo-button doesn't work inter-phasial.

And there are lost of situations I just forget an important element for an operation, because of my geographic focus. Then I have to find and reload exactly the one saved game dealing with this missing element.

What about all you veteran board gamers? "Sequencially hardened"? Total situation awareness? No house rules for such situations?

Regards

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

How about making it possible to check the supply status for a single hex that you mayby want to move to but that you are uncertin if you have supply there or not? A right click menu perhaps?

/Magnus

I believe that this exists already from the CWiF days, but I also believe that such a feature (lightening, or darkening hexes that are in your supply net) to be very desirable in MWiF. Even if that takes a lot of CPU time, this will be an option that you toggle on / off, so that you can turn it of most of the time.

Also, to speed this up a little, the game does not have to check all the map's hexes, it only for example has to check hexes that are around your supply sources. Kind of doing the supply trip in reverse. Instead of going from unit to supply source, this routine would go from supply source to end of the supply net.

[bj_rohde]

On page three, I believe the text is incorrect; emergency HQ supply does NOT put the HQ itself in supply, it merely makes units nearby act as if they were in supply.
 
Bjarne

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: bj_rohde

On page three, I believe the text is incorrect; emergency HQ supply does NOT put the HQ itself in supply, it merely makes units nearby act as if they were in supply.

Bjarne

Good remark.

I've had put this question in the list of questions to Harry, as the rule is clear that you can't put Q in supply with your HQ, but not clear as if the supplying HQ is itself n supply or not.
I do not have the answer yet.

[lomyrin]

I think an undo moves feature inside a single phase is very important to have. As CWiF did it, it should function sequentially so that in order to undo a particular move a chain of undo's need to be made starting with the last unit moved and continuing until it reaches the desired units undo move. The game would have to keep a running record of moves to accomplish this.
 
Lars
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I think an undo moves feature inside a single phase is very important to have. As CWiF did it, it should function sequentially so that in order to undo a particular move a chain of undo's need to be made starting with the last unit moved and continuing until it reaches the desired units undo move. The game would have to keep a running record of moves to accomplish this.

Lars

Yes. (applies to Wosung's comments too)

I just want to check that the Undo code operates correctly because the interaction between units as to their supply status is very intricate.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: bj_rohde

On page three, I believe the text is incorrect; emergency HQ supply does NOT put the HQ itself in supply, it merely makes units nearby act as if they were in supply.

Bjarne

Good remark.

I've had put this question in the list of questions to Harry, as the rule is clear that you can't put Q in supply with your HQ, but not clear as if the supplying HQ is itself n supply or not.
I do not have the answer yet.

Thanks.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus
How about making it possible to check the supply status for a single hex that you mayby want to move to but that you are uncertin if you have supply there or not? A right click menu perhaps?

/Magnus

I believe that this exists already from the CWiF days, but I also believe that such a feature (lightening, or darkening hexes that are in your supply net) to be very desirable in MWiF. Even if that takes a lot of CPU time, this will be an option that you toggle on / off, so that you can turn it of most of the time.

Also, to speed this up a little, the game does not have to check all the map's hexes, it only for example has to check hexes that are around your supply sources. Kind of doing the supply trip in reverse. Instead of going from unit to supply source, this routine would go from supply source to end of the supply net.

I am still at "perhaps, maybe".

Adding any new feature comes with a heavy burden of justification because of feature creep.

And I still envision the player clicking on this at zoom level 2 while playing the CW. Given the number of CW Primary supply sources and its extensive convoy network (or when playnig without the optional rule requiring convoys for overseas supply), how much of the map do you think could potentially be in supply?

[Zorachus99]

Yep feature creep at the wrong time.
 
But this feature is one of those 'let the computer do it', things that I've always wished for.  You really have to exercise the brain without such a feature.  The unit displaying supply status is a good 'middle-of-the-road' method, however it doesn't give you a strategic understanding of what your lines are capable of, compared to what they are with units in them.
 
The good news:  you get to decide.
 
Working in software development , I've had many feature requests shot down

[composer99]

I myself am not convinced that such a feature is necessary. As long as you know what supply rules you are using (normal or Limited Overseas), and as long as you have the necessary assets in place (TRS/cp or SCS/NAV) in the sea areas you want to project supply into, then it's not too hard to know, from a strategic perspective, where you can keep units in supply. Throw in HQs and you're good for overland supply as well.

[dale1066]

I guess its a WIBNI after all do we want the machines help to make the game too easy? mind you for beginners could be useful?

[composer99]

Could be, I suppose. But beginners playing the board game version can get on without it, so I imagine they can probably also manage without it in MWiF.

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Feature Request: Show supply    Severity: High

A function which shows all current 'in supply' hexes.  Just a button to darken hexes so you can determine current supply status would be incredibly helpful.  Of course you want to show supply both offensively and defensively when toggling this type of overlay.

I agree with this request. Yes, it may seem like feature creep, but I feel that it is important. New players may be befuddled by the concept of supply and will need the additional help to understand. Experienced players will be able to play faster (and therefore more games) because they can toggle the display and not have to count hexes.

Please add this feature.

Please [&o] oh Please

[bredsjomagnus]

I myself am not convinced that such a feature is necessary. As long as you know what supply rules you are using (normal or Limited Overseas), and as long as you have the necessary assets in place (TRS/cp or SCS/NAV) in the sea areas you want to project supply into, then it's not too hard to know, from a strategic perspective, where you can keep units in supply. Throw in HQs and you're good for overland supply as well.
_____________________________

~ Christopher Askwith, B.Mus

Could be, I suppose. But beginners playing the board game version can get on without it, so I imagine they can probably also manage without it in MWiF.

_____________________________

~ Christopher Askwith, B.Mus

 
Well... im a new beginner and found out yesterday, after starting up "the tide turns"-scenario that we didn´t do supply correct. Of course we eventually will (and instead find out that we didn´t do another thing correct). There is sooooo much for a newbie to remember so the brain is boiling after a few hours. And not because Im planning my strategy. Just because I want to move some naval units around and mayby do a port attack (and remeber the supply status check and the supply rules). It´s quite some brain gymnastics.
 
IMHO a little help from the computer would be really nice to get in to the game faster and make it possible for me to use my brain capacity for my excellent strategies instead. [:D]
 
/Magnus

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice and I have continued work on the supply tutorial. The fisrt 3 pages have received some touchups, so I'll present them again here.
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[Shannon V. OKeets]

Not many changes here.