Possible occupation bug

[ulver]

How can I occupy Paris for 4 impulses as the Germans without gaming control of the hex?

In a PBM the same stack of German units have occupied Paris for 4 (possible 5 impulses) been defender in combat won every battle and still failed to have gained control of the hex? Have a saved game if you want it. – The Germans and French both occupy the Hex turn after turn and still the Germans doesn’t gain the hex no matter how many times they win the battle.

[hjaco]

ORIGINAL: ulver

How can I occupy Paris for 4 impulses as the Germans without gaming control of the hex?

In a PBM the same stack of German units have occupied Paris for 4 (possible 5 impulses) been defender in combat won every battle and still failed to have gained control of the hex? Have a saved game if you want it. – The Germans and French both occupy the Hex turn after turn and still the Germans doesn’t gain the hex no matter how many times they win the battle.

What needs clarification is under which circumstances does a "draw" in combat occur i.e. where the "loser" is staying in the hex and later has the option to withdraw ?

I assume ownership of the hex will be finally settled when only one side occupies it, but as long that is not settled it is possible to withdraw some of the original troops and substituting them with others.

Furthermore it is possible to refit troops in such a hex back to normal ?

[SteveD64]

Good questions, I have wondered under what conditions victory or losses occur.  I've had two situations (one that happened to me and one that happened to the AI) where the firepower was something like 100 to 7 and the attacker was assaulting a city and lost.   The defender was completely eliminated and the attacker suffered no losses but still lost the battle.

[hjaco]

ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND

Good questions, I have wondered under what conditions victory or losses occur. I've had two situations (one that happened to me and one that happened to the AI) where the firepower was something like 100 to 7 and the attacker was assaulting a city and lost. The defender was completely eliminated and the attacker suffered no losses but still lost the battle.

In your example it sounds more to be a result of remaining permanent fortification points i.e. if infantry is defending a city with permanent fortification you may wipe out the defenders but still loose the combat which represents the stubborn garrison in the fortification.

[ulver]

Yes if you attack a fortress you may fail to take it even if you win the battle.

This was a somewhat different situation in that the Germans advanced into Paris (Fortress reduced to 0) but the French did not redraw. Both sides subsequently occupied the hex for the next 4-5 impulses including a strategic phase. There was combat every turn with the Germans acting as the defender even though the hex was still marked as French!!!. As defenders the Germans won every battle but both sides stayed in the hex and the French kept control. I’m pretty sure we are dealing with a pretty serious bug.

I mean how can I be defender in a hex turn after turn – win every battle and the opponent keeps control of the hex?[:@]

Irritating as it was turning out to be an interesting game – we were unable to complete the previous one due to the navel movement bug.

[SMK-at-work]

Defender/attacker is not about who controls the hex - it is about who gets to move first in a combat.  You can actually "invade" a hex and be the defender if both sides move into the hex but you are assumed to have moved into position before the other guy - IIRC this is based on readiness - high readiness units get to defend in this circumstance.
 
In the case of Paris you have ongoing combat with both nationalities in the hex, so each turn the defender/attacker is decided anew.
 
The hex will remain French until you force them out - it does not matter if you are the attacker or defender in combat.

[ulver]

OK but how come I don’t force them out after winning 4 battles in a row in the hex?

[Szilard]

From the manual, below. If you're not causing a lot more damage to him than he is to you, he won't retreat ...

When both sides in a battle are finished firing there is a retreat check. On the Western and Italian
fronts, if the defender takes 50% more casualties than the attacker he is forced to retreat. On the
other fronts, if the defender takes more casualties than the attacker then he is forced to retreat.
The defender is also forced to retreat if at the conclusion of the battle the remaining attackers far
outnumber the defenders as modified by the strength of any entrenchments.

Besides the forced retreat above, corps will also retreat individually from a hex if their strength or
readiness fall to 0.

[hjaco]

See also the end of my AAR tm.asp?m=1548900&mpage=3&key=
for a further explanation.

But still i would like a clarification on why units from both sides in rare occasions stay in the same hex after combat i.e. one side has afterwards the option to choose "withdraw" ?

[FrankHunter]

It just means neither side has been forced to retreat.  Normally the battles are bloody enough that someone will throw in the towel but that doesn't have to be the case.