AI for MWiF - Germany

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
It is crucial to take Amsterdam, because it is the only factory. Netherlands will experience incomplete conquest at the end of the turn. The para is inconsequential in any regard. Allies have to DOW Belgium to stuff Rotterdam effectively. Though it seems a good position initially; reinforcing the BEF to Rotterdam is a mistake in most situations IMO.

A mistake that may well result in the Wallies holding the dyle line when the Germans attack Belgium, which is very dangerous for the Germans. Using the PARA is an insurance that Belgium & the Netherlands will be conquered without risks.

I agree.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Assuming Germany conquers Netherlands on impulse 1 and declares war on Belgium on impulse 3, how do the Belgians place their units?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Assuming Germany conquers Netherlands on impulse 1 and declares war on Belgium on impulse 3, how do the Belgians place their units?

Might depend on the weather, but assuming it is fine, one setup is :
- 2 INF in Antwerp ==> poor German attack that can result in flips or no attack ==> possibility for wallies to advance to Dyle.
- CAV in Liege ==> overwhelmed.
- nothing in Brussels ==> German PARA attacks, notional can be denied to result in PARA alone and possible wallies (weak) counterattack, hence advance to Dyle.
- nothing on the resource, otherwise the Germans will Blitz to the French border.

A wallies position behind the Dyle is the worst Germany can hope for their campaign in the west.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Assuming Germany conquers Netherlands on impulse 1 and declares war on Belgium on impulse 3, how do the Belgians place their units?

For Germany to conquer the Netherlands, Netherlands needs to place its units :
- As much units as possible must be setup outside the Netherlands. From most important to less : CP, then TRS, then SUB, the Cruisers.
- The INF on Amsterdam, unless the Germas attack without the PARA, and it is raining, and the option about ignoring ZoC is not active. In that case, the INF can be placed on the Resource, denying the German the possibility to take neither Rotterdam nor Amsterdam, giving the CW the possibility to garrison both.

The CW going into the Netherlands can be either a blessing for a German who has decided to go after the CW, because it is then the first opportunity to hurt him, or a simple nuisance, as the German can also go around them, ignoring them, and proceed to France.
Whatever, it delays the conquest of France, either because the German is busy killing the Brits in the Netherlands, or because the German has to leave screening units behind him to avoid seeing the Brits run around the country killing disrupted planes.

Globaly, I think that this is not a good thing for Germany, as I think that for Germany, the sooner France falls, the better, really.

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
A wallies position behind the Dyle is the worst Germany can hope for their campaign in the west.

I agree with Patrice. Every time the Germans have been delayed in France in our grames has been because of this. It is a pain the German neck to break the Dyle-line. It usually takes an OC or very good rolls.

[dale1066]

Since the german para arrives in M/A 1940 is there scope in the german plan to attack either of these before then say if there is a bit of luck and there is a turn of fair weather (in a ZOC game of course)

I have to say I usually like to get going against these before 1940 USE be damned also if the AI is going to wait for the para wouldn't it be a little too predictable ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: dale1066
also if the AI is going to wait for the para wouldn't it be a little too predictable ?

I believe that Steve will use multiple possible German strategies, so you will not know what it is up to. He may select one strategy where the Netherlands are attacked, or one where they are not, and if they are attacked, he may use the tactic I talked about (waiting for the PARA) or may use any other tactical opportunity to attack the Netherlands, for example : good weather + CW TRS already used ==> Impossible for CW to go into Rotterdam, or another more risky one.

[Arron69]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Assuming Germany conquers Netherlands on impulse 1 and declares war on Belgium on impulse 3, how do the Belgians place their units?

For Germany to conquer the Netherlands, Netherlands needs to place its units :
- As much units as possible must be setup outside the Netherlands. From most important to less : CP, then TRS, then SUB, the Cruisers.
- The INF on Amsterdam, unless the Germas attack without the PARA, and it is raining, and the option about ignoring ZoC is not active. In that case, the INF can be placed on the Resource, denying the German the possibility to take neither Rotterdam nor Amsterdam, giving the CW the possibility to garrison both.

The CW going into the Netherlands can be either a blessing for a German who has decided to go after the CW, because it is then the first opportunity to hurt him, or a simple nuisance, as the German can also go around them, ignoring them, and proceed to France.
Whatever, it delays the conquest of France, either because the German is busy killing the Brits in the Netherlands, or because the German has to leave screening units behind him to avoid seeing the Brits run around the country killing disrupted planes.

Globaly, I think that this is not a good thing for Germany, as I think that for Germany, the sooner France falls, the better, really.

I agree on this, and if i send a BEF, i'll use it, if i did not the hole idea of sending it is gone. And as france is about to fall, i'll make low odds attacks on the German panzer with french armor and mech, becourse if i kill one off them its worth losing an mech that almost for sure is a vichy unit soon.

Andi.

[composer99]

Invading the Netherlands
I once had a German div invade Rotterdam with some additional attacking units without needing to use the PARA. Amsterdam has 4 factors defening if the Dutch set up there, Rotterdam has but 1 if the notional is used and you invade on the surprise impulse. As long as you have some cheap losses or units you don't really need (if they flip), and as long as you can spare a combined, it can be done without too much trouble. Allocate a little ground support (doubled on surprise), and you're all good.
 
Invading Denmark
Assuming the CW hasn't already committed their forces, I would also advise having a couple of divisions that can sweep across the entire coastal area that the CW could land on with transports to cover it. Even with a corps, if the CW lands in force and conquers the island that Frederikshavn is on, it's very difficult to dig them out.
 
Setting up the Danish
The MIL of course goes on the spiral to arrive the turn after the DoW, but in the meantime the 2 cruisers and 1 cp should go in Frederikshavn, while the other 5 cp should not go in Denmark proper but rather into Iceland.

[brian brian]

What Christopher said. The British can land Gort and then a MOT in any hex the Germans don't take. So if you send, say, just the 2-6 Tank Destroyer gun all by it's lonesome to northern Denmark you might regret it. But that gun (if available, 80% chance), and two Motorized divisions from a broken-down MOT corps at set-up (if an non-SS motorized div is available from the Mech in Flames CS 23 (or the new divisions in the computer game)) should be all you need, aside from a bit of sunshine. What to do if it stays rain or worse through-out Sep/Oct? Tough call. It also helps to at least threaten a France or Netherlands first by committing to Poland as lightly as you think possible (watch out for two Poles setting up in Katowice though), so the British have to think a little bit about committing up there, since they can't unflip their TRS at sea. With enough pressure on them the Brits shouldn't be able to park forces up there to stay for a long time but they can definitely cause plenty of havoc for a few turns (I hope the CW AI learns this trick). With out enough pressure on them it can indeed be hard to get them out of there, especially with Defensive Shore Bombardment. I also like to put one Danish cruiser in Aarhus and Frederikshavn each, so the Germans might have to walk through an extra hex to get them both, important if they don't have one four mover, one five-mover and one six-mover ready for the invasion (or if some mean Allied player successfully ground-struck a German unit in Schleswig-Holstein). And I might put the remaining 5 Danish CP in Greenland instead, because as Germany I like to break down the MTN corps at start and use it to invade Iceland on the surprise impulse if it is good weather in the Arctic and Presence of the Enemy issues can be worked out.

And you thought invading a country without ground units would be easy.

Now I'll go and read the Netherlands/Belgium items...

[brian brian]

The Netherlands - I like to skip it as the Germans, taking it in 1941, but the division invasion is one way to go. I also like to intervene there as the CW, but not with the MOT corps, rather a GARR and a MIL, maybe the Royal Engineers too while you can hold the hex behind it. With DSB the Germans will probably never attack it. (But Antwerp is probably a better place to intervene). Also if the Germans stupidly don't have a blitz unit and a good ground-striker close-by, a good Dutch defense is to put the INF on the resource hex.

If the Belgian INFs set-up in Antwerp and I don't have the Netherlands, I attack them with the 9-4 INF and von Bock and the 4-2 ART. Say 6 factors ground support from LND-3's doubled makes 32 : 9 = +7, +2 HQ Support, +4 flips (assuming, but with Stukas on surprise, quite likely; if nervous ground strike with 2 planes) = net +13 (plus small fractional with 3d10 as we play). Take the hex on a natural 6 or higher, or go all the way to 40:9 with more planes. If the Belgians are smarter than that and set up behind Brussels, I don't mind that either but it is irksome. You can get a slightly lower net + attack from three hexes, only two across the Dyle, against Brussels. The problem there is three defending units make it tougher to take the hex and there may be French ARTillery behind it as well. I wouldn't use an O-chit against it unless time was exceedingly critical for other strategic reasons, I would just regroup with the Rundstedt and von Leeb HQ's and try again without HQ support, even if you fail on the first go the French might not have as good a defense the second time either, or if you're running really late and it is already May/Jun maybe Guderian is available to help also. But then I'm now completely accustomed to playing with the alternate Vichy rules that don't require a similarly vicious battle for Paris later on. If the French 6-4 INF is outside France it can be good for the Germans to DoW Belgium in a rain impulse and at least two of the three defenders will have to flip in to Brussels. Or it is also good to try for a double move for the Belgian campaign.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Assuming Germany conquers Netherlands on impulse 1 and declares war on Belgium on impulse 3, how do the Belgians place their units?

You don't. Use belgium as a shield to get total air superiority over the brits. Flipped units count more than all the possible shore bombardment. Germany has div's & much more HQ support, the brits will die. The british resource expediture for such a defensive maneuver allows the Italians a riposte in most cases.

I've never been held at the Dyle, the important hex is the resource in belgium. That's what lets you maneuver superior forces properly.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Assuming Germany conquers Netherlands on impulse 1 and declares war on Belgium on impulse 3, how do the Belgians place their units?

You don't. Use belgium as a shield to get total air superiority over the brits. Flipped units count more than all the possible shore bombardment. Germany has div's & much more HQ support, the brits will die. The british resource expediture for such a defensive maneuver allows the Italians a riposte in most cases.

I've never been held at the Dyle, the important hex is the resource in belgium. That's what lets you maneuver superior forces properly.

Let me ask the question another way then. From Germany's point of view, what is the most annoying setup for the Belgian units?

[Zorachus99]

Actually you are on the right track as far as annoying goes.  However if the Brits do a move into the dyle because the germans have no para, the reaction must be decisive.  In any case an attack on both belgium and netherlands in the same impulse, even with para is well nigh unto impossible.  Also, you must consider during the DOW phase as the Axis whether the Brits have used their transports already.  If so, you are quite at ease with the attack on the netherlands.
 
I don't know the perfect Belgian setup to be honest.  There is much debate over where the units must go.  Of much greater import is how the french setup their line.  If belgium is conqured in a single clear or snow weather impulse, and then the weather changes to rain during the wallies impulse, the French may not be able to react appropriately with their slow moving units.  Movement of two hexes flips nearly every french unit.

[brian brian]

my post was a bit long; if the Germans don't have Rotterdam first the Belgians have a choice. after sacrificing the CAV in Liege they can put their other two INF in Antwerp and force the Germans to attack it to cross the Dyle, or they can put them behind Brussels so they and/or some W.Allies can man the Dyle line the next impulse.

If the Germans don't have a good stack set up in the hex NE of Liege then an Antwerp deployment looks better by the degree of what is in that German hex, cuz only what is in that hex can attack Antwerp.

if the Germans have Rotterdam already I can't recall what I do as it's already hopeless. This is why it can be good for the British to occupy Rotterdam if given the chance.

Lately I've been thinking about putting the CAV in the Belgian Congo to play supply line chicken with the 'Camel Corps'.

[Zorachus99]

Yep, Rotterdam is the central point of whether Belgium is a pushover or not during DOW phase.

[dale1066]

For Holland and Bel Is it worth while someone ( I will volunteer but already since reading this thread I've had my eyes opened) listing possible/probable scenarios and then a possible set up

eg

1. Germany DOW on Both Holland and Belguim in same impulse ( not great idea but possibly required if weather is atrocious)

2. Belguim first and Holland much later with Japan

3. (etc)

mind you this gets complicated when the games current position is taken into account

eg
options a No major possible CW intervention (I'm assuming its practcally always poss, but of little use, to get a CW or French div in)
b one/two CW corps + div available for support
c german para available
d german para not avail

Quick question will the AIO will have fixed setups to select from based on known strategys or will it compute a position based on current position? or both?

[composer99]

Brian was onto something with his note on how to take out Antwerp if the Belgians set up there if you haven't secured the Netherlands before attacking Belgium. See his post above (#171).
 
Remember that the Dyle river does nothing on the surprise impulse, so you can attack Antwerp with full strength units and lots of ground support (doubled!).
 
If the Belgians leave Brussels empty, who cares? Bypass it to the north and south (esp. the Belgian resource hex, as someone else commented above). If you get Antwerp and the resource hex, then the Allies can't get into Brussels, you have bypassed the river lines, and it's clear running with the tanks all the way to Paris...
 
All this talk of German rampaging through the Low Countries is making me want to play Germany next game.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: dale1066
For Holland and Bel Is it worth while someone ( I will volunteer but already since reading this thread I've had my eyes opened) listing possible/probable scenarios and then a possible set up

eg

1. Germany DOW on Both Holland and Belguim in same impulse ( not great idea but possibly required if weather is atrocious)

2. Belguim first and Holland much later with Japan

3. (etc)

mind you this gets complicated when the games current position is taken into account

eg
options a No major possible CW intervention (I'm assuming its practcally always poss, but of little use, to get a CW or French div in)
b one/two CW corps + div available for support
c german para available
d german para not avail

Quick question will the AIO will have fixed setups to select from based on known strategys or will it compute a position based on current position? or both?

This is what I am trying to work out. I would like to have excellent play by the AIO for these little "set pieces". WIF players have analyzed them over and over again, almost like chess openings. To have the AIO fumbling around here would put it at a distinct diadvantage early in the war when time is so very important.

I do not intend to do this everywhere, for instance the defense and attacks on Poland and France will be handled by general purpose AI Field Marshal routines.

The garrisoning of countries is also pretty much a "set piece".

My philosophy is that if there is an obvious best choice, then the AIO should do that. When multiple choices are reasonable, then the AIO will randomly choose from among them.

[dale1066]

So how can the belgians and the allies hold the dyle? In a no zoc game impossible? either with our without dutch neutrality?

The ZOC/NO ZOC rule must make a big differance to setups as discussed in part already? never used no ZOC myself seems a little too powerful for the axis for my liking is it used much?

my head is beginning to lose count of the possible openings vs bel/holland[:)]