Supply Tutorial - #9

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here the out of supply indicators were changed.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

This is a new page. All these screen shots were created by Patrice.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

5th and last in the series. Do you like the weather effects? They can be toggled off. Persoanlly I think the status indicators are doing a good job.

[composer99]

Just a couple of comments about the first two pages.
 
(1) The spelling error in page 1 that I made note of (see post #8 in this thread) persists.
 
(2) On page 2, the South African territorial might be a bad choice of example for tracing supply paths in South Africa, because TERR, if memory serves, are always in supply in their home country. Perhaps, since the example being offered up is how any CW major power home country city is a primary supply source for any CW major power unit, the TERR be replaced with another CW unit from the UK or India or something.
 
The other three pages look pretty good and are clear and easy to understand. The Italian HQ emergency supply example, of course, has been discussed earlier.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99
(2) On page 2, the South African territorial might be a bad choice of example for tracing supply paths in South Africa, because TERR, if memory serves, are always in supply in their home country.

Ghost of the WiF past Christopher [;)].

[composer99]

Really? Wow. Time to go home and read through WiF:FE RAW Aug 2004 again.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Just a couple of comments about the first two pages.

(1) The spelling error in page 1 that I made note of (see post #8 in this thread) persists.

(2) On page 2, the South African territorial might be a bad choice of example for tracing supply paths in South Africa, because TERR, if memory serves, are always in supply in their home country. Perhaps, since the example being offered up is how any CW major power home country city is a primary supply source for any CW major power unit, the TERR be replaced with another CW unit from the UK or India or something.

The other three pages look pretty good and are clear and easy to understand. The Italian HQ emergency supply example, of course, has been discussed earlier.

I actually fixed one misspelling of tertiary, but missed the one in the tutorial header.

[dale1066]

Thanks for the RaW reference

Is that the std rules text used for MWif?

I just downloaded it from http://www.a-d-g.com.au/downloads.htm are there any addendums for it?

Cheers

Dale

[dale1066]

Just reading the italian example page 4
Can the turin hex be used as a supply source as the zoc from the french cav extends into turin ? I thought the presence of friendly units allows tracing of path but only land units can do it not air or naval ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Just reading the italian example page 4
Can the turin hex be used as a supply source as the zoc from the french cav extends into turin ? I thought the presence of friendly units allows tracing of path but only land units can do it not air or naval ?

Only land.
There is a number, a "3", written on the top of the FTR that is in Turin, which means that there are 3 units in Turin. The top unit is a FTR, but the 2 below are land units.

[lomyrin]

The '3' above the Italian Ftr in Turin shows that there are 3 units in the hex of which the Ftr is 1. Presumably the other 2 include land units. Perhaps this should be accentuated.
 
That allows supply to be traced into Turin.
 
Lars 

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Maybe it would be a good idea to have the first pages in the tutorial about supply showing the drawings you made about how to trace supply and what types of supply sources you have?

I also believe it would be a good idea to have one page showing the meaning off all the "lights" above the counters. I learnt from the text that yellow means out of supply, dark green means a supply source, red means isolated. But how do you e. g. indicate disorganized?

I'm a bit rusty myself about how the WIFFE supply rules work so the tutorials are great to refresh my memory. [:)]

One thing I wonder about, though, is seems you can only trace a basic supply line to a home city (primary supply source) and then get supply or you can trace a basic supply line to an in supply HQ. In most strategic wargames rail lines would be the most important way of tracing supply back home. E. g. the Germans were in supply with their units in Russia if they could trace to these rail lines.

Is it only HQs that can trace a supply line back to a home city using the sea or rail lines?  I read in the rules you can trace a basic supply line of 4 hexes (less in poor weather) to the secondary or primary supply source. But if you trace along rail lines the rail hexes doesn't count towards the maximum number of hexes.

I therefore wonder why the Finnish Mech unit can't trace supply during the rain weather to the rail hex NE or NW of Tampere and then use the rail line to the primary supply source in Tampere?  Is it only HQ units who can trace supply this way to a primary supply source?  Does it mean land units must trace a basic supply line counting every hex to an HQ or directly to a primary supply source. I guess this means German units can only trace to HQs when they are in Russia and then only the HQs will use the rail network back to Germany. So it means you better place your HQs close to rail lines who aren't cut.

If my interpretation of the rules is correct then it may be a good idea to explain this so people know why the Finnish mech is out of supply in the rain example. You can use the same example to explain the HQ is out of supply because it's more than 2 hexes (basic supply limit during rain) away from any rail head not in Russian ZOC.  This shows the importance of keeping HQs close to rail lines, especially when you expect poor weather.

That brings another question. How to you manage to keep units in supply in areas with no rail lines (like Libya). Ports are supply
sources that can bring supply back home, but because it's a lot of desert in Libya (meaning every hex counts as 2 for supply purposes) it means a single HQ can only be 2 hexes away from a port if it wants to be in supply. That means you need a chain of HQs if you want to stage an offensive and keep your front units in supply. Maybe it's a good idea to show such an example so people learn about the importance of creating supply chains with HQs?

I guess most WIFFE novices will think it's enough to build one HQ for Libya or Egypt and think it's enough to keep you in supply, but I guess you need to be more careful than that. E. g. how do you manage to make the rapid movement from El Alamein to Tripoli as the Allies?  How many HQs are needed for such an offensive to be successful? Or do you need to capture every port along the route to Tripoli and use every new port as a secondary supply source? Doesn't it also mean you need have convoys in the sea areas the ports border to. So having examples showing you're in supply through a port and convoys in the sea areas will show the importance of making such supply lines.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

Maybe it would be a good idea to have the first pages in the tutorial about supply showing the drawings you made about how to trace supply and what types of supply sources you have?

I also believe it would be a good idea to have one page showing the meaning off all the "lights" above the counters. I learnt from the text that yellow means out of supply, dark green means a supply source, red means isolated. But how do you e. g. indicate disorganized?

I believe that both will be in the rulebook and in the help system.

I'm a bit rusty myself about how the WIFFE supply rules work so the tutorials are great to refresh my memory. [:)]

One thing I wonder about, though, is seems you can only trace a basic supply line to a home city (primary supply source) and then get supply or you can trace a basic supply line to an in supply HQ. In most strategic wargames rail lines would be the most important way of tracing supply back home. E. g. the Germans were in supply with their units in Russia if they could trace to these rail lines.

Is it only HQs that can trace a supply line back to a home city using the sea or rail lines?  I read in the rules you can trace a basic supply line of 4 hexes (less in poor weather) to the secondary or primary supply source. But if you trace along rail lines the rail hexes doesn't count towards the maximum number of hexes.

This will be covered in the subsequent pages of the Tutorial.

I therefore wonder why the Finnish Mech unit can't trace supply during the rain weather to the rail hex NE or NW of Tampere and then use the rail line to the primary supply source in Tampere?  Is it only HQ units who can trace supply this way to a primary supply source? 

Only secondary sources can user the rails. The units are stuck with the basic supply paths.

Does it mean land units must trace a basic supply line counting every hex to an HQ or directly to a primary supply source.

Yes.
Exactly that, with the slight caveat that HQ are not the only secondary sources that exist. This will be covered in the subsequents pages of that Tutorial, but you may know that capital cities of conquered and aligned countries are also secondary supply sources.

I guess this means German unit can only trace to HQs when they are in Russia and then only the HQs will use the rail network back to Germany. So it means you better place your HQs close to rail lines who aren't cut.

Spot on.

If my interpretation of the rules is correct then it may be a good idea to explain this so people know why the Finnish mech is out of supply in the rain example. You can use the same example to explain the HQ is out of supply because it's more than 2 hexes (basic supply limit during rain) away from any rail head not in Russian ZOC.  This shows the importance of keeping HQs close to rail lines, especially when you expect poor weather.

You're right. Steve will decide it talking about this at this stage is good or not, as remember that it will be explained a couple of pages further.

That brings another question. How to you manage to keep units in supply in areas with no rail lines (like Libya). Ports are supply sources that can bring supply back home, but because it's a lot of desert in Libya (meaning every hex counts as 2 for supply purposes) it means a single HQ can only be 2 hexes away from a port if it wants to be in supply.

Spot on again !!

That means you need a chain of HQs if you want to stage an offensive and keep your front units in supply. Maybe it's a good idea to show such an example so people learn about the importance of creating supply chains with HQs?

That rather mean that you rarely "stage an offensive" of the kind that you stage on the russian front, and that you rather stay as close to the coast & ports as possible.

I guess most WIFFE novices will think it's enough to build one HQ for Libya or Egypt and think it's enough to keep you in supply, but I guess you need to be more careful than that. E. g. how do you manage to make the rapid movement from El Alamein to Tripoli as the Allies? 

Using TRS is one way. Loaded in Alexandria or on an HQ, and unloaded in Homs or an HQ. This need to take control of Homs previously, or have some sort of beach head wih an HQ on it.
Alternatively, you can run all along the coast with rapid MOT & MECH units. If you stay on the coast, no need for an HQ.

How many HQs are needed for such an offensive to be successful? Or do you need to capture every port along the route to Tripoli and use every new port as a secondary supply source? Doesn't it also mean you need have convoys in the sea areas the ports border to. So having examples showing you're in supply through a port and convoys in the sea areas will show the importance of making such supply lines.

This is the next page of the Tutorial. Steve suggested to have it show the BEF in France, in supply through Calais and CP in the North Sea.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

Maybe it would be a good idea to have the first pages in the tutorial about supply showing the drawings you made about how to trace supply and what types of supply sources you have?

I also believe it would be a good idea to have one page showing the meaning off all the "lights" above the counters. I learnt from the text that yellow means out of supply, dark green means a supply source, red means isolated. But how do you e. g. indicate disorganized?

I'm a bit rusty myself about how the WIFFE supply rules work so the tutorials are great to refresh my memory. [:)]

One thing I wonder about, though, is seems you can only trace a basic supply line to a home city (primary supply source) and then get supply or you can trace a basic supply line to an in supply HQ. In most strategic wargames rail lines would be the most important way of tracing supply back home. E. g. the Germans were in supply with their units in Russia if they could trace to these rail lines.

Is it only HQs that can trace a supply line back to a home city using the sea or rail lines?  I read in the rules you can trace a basic supply line of 4 hexes (less in poor weather) to the secondary or primary supply source. But if you trace along rail lines the rail hexes doesn't count towards the maximum number of hexes.

I therefore wonder why the Finnish Mech unit can't trace supply during the rain weather to the rail hex NE or NW of Tampere and then use the rail line to the primary supply source in Tampere?  Is it only HQ units who can trace supply this way to a primary supply source?  Does it mean land units must trace a basic supply line counting every hex to an HQ or directly to a primary supply source. I guess this means German unit can only trace to HQs when they are in Russia and then only the HQs will use the rail network back to Germany. So it means you better place your HQs close to rail lines who aren't cut.

If my interpretation of the rules is correct then it may be a good idea to explain this so people know why the Finnish mech is out of supply in the rain example. You can use the same example to explain the HQ is out of supply because it's more than 2 hexes (basic supply limit during rain) away from any rail head not in Russian ZOC.  This shows the importance of keeping HQs close to rail lines, especially when you expect poor weather.

That brings another question. How to you manage to keep units in supply in areas with no rail lines (like Libya). Ports are supply
sources that can bring supply back home, but because it's a lot of desert in Libya (meaning every hex counts as 2 for supply purposes) it means a single HQ can only be 2 hexes away from a port if it wants to be in supply. That means you need a chain of HQs if you want to stage an offensive and keep your front units in supply. Maybe it's a good idea to show such an example so people learn about the importance of creating supply chains with HQs?

I guess most WIFFE novices will think it's enough to build one HQ for Libya or Egypt and think it's enough to keep you in supply, but I guess you need to be more careful than that. E. g. how do you manage to make the rapid movement from El Alamein to Tripoli as the Allies?  How many HQs are needed for such an offensive to be successful? Or do you need to capture every port along the route to Tripoli and use every new port as a secondary supply source? Doesn't it also mean you need have convoys in the sea areas the ports border to. So having examples showing you're in supply through a port and convoys in the sea areas will show the importance of making such supply lines.

I believe Patrice answered your questions - and I agree with his answers.

I decided to ignore rail and overseas supply at the start of this tutorial. As you can see there is a lot to cover without introducing those concepts. I wanted to nail down all the Primary supply sources and the basic supply path length (4, 3, or 2 hexes) first. Then go through how paths are blocked and the effects of being out of supply. There are at least 4 more pages to the tutorial and they'll cover overseas supply, secondary supply sources, railway supply paths, and tertiary supply sources. If need be we'll add more pages.

[Froonp]

Steve, while doing the screenshot for page 6 of the tutorial 9, that shows oversea supply, I found that it was not easily seen in MWiF whether supply flowed or not through a sea area.

Depending on the optional rules chosen, supply flows if you have certains units at sea. CP, TRS, AMPH generaly.

On the paper WiF FE game, those units are generaly put in a visible way in or around the sea box section in which they are, so that each player knows at a single glance if supply flows for him or his enemy throught a sea area or not.

In the MWiF game, all units in a sea box section are placed on the top of each other in one single stack of units, so if the CP / AMPH / TRS is not the top unit, you don't see it, so a player don't know at a glance if supply flows for him or his enemy through a sea area or not.

I suggest that there is some form of indicator that shows whether supply flows or not. This may be on the Global Map or the Main Map.

The Global map already shows if you have CP, how many, and also it you have TRS / AMPH and how many, so if you are used to the numbers on the Global Map, you can see supply flow.

But I'd suggest that a more evident way is used. On the Main Map, we could simply have a green light appear beside the sea area name if the Wallies supply flows, and a Red light if the Axis supply flows (or another color that reminds of the Axis side). The light would become gray (or disappear) if no supply flows. It would then be evident if supply flows or not.

Maybe this indicator would only be activated in the game if you use the Optional Rule that requires CP / TRS / AMPH at sea for supply to flow, because I seem to remember that if you are not using that rule, supply flows from the moment you have a unit at sea, so it is already evident if it flows or not.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Steve, while doing the screenshot for page 6 of the tutorial 9, that shows oversea supply, I found that it was not easily seen in MWiF whether supply flowed or not through a sea area.

Depending on the optional rules chosen, supply flows if you have certains units at sea. CP, TRS, AMPH generaly.

On the paper WiF FE game, those units are generaly put in a visible way in or around the sea box section in which they are, so that each player knows at a single glance if supply flows for him or his enemy throught a sea area or not.

In the MWiF game, all units in a sea box section are placed on the top of each other in one single stack of units, so if the CP / AMPH / TRS is not the top unit, you don't see it, so a player don't know at a glance if supply flows for him or his enemy through a sea area or not.

I suggest that there is some form of indicator that shows whether supply flows or not. This may be on the Global Map or the Main Map.

The Global map already shows if you have CP, how many, and also it you have TRS / AMPH and how many, so if you are used to the numbers on the Global Map, you can see supply flow.

But I'd suggest that a more evident way is used. On the Main Map, we could simply have a green light appear beside the sea area name if the Wallies supply flows, and a Red light if the Axis supply flows (or another color that reminds of the Axis side). The light would become gray (or disappear) if no supply flows. It would then be evident if supply flows or not.

Maybe this indicator would only be activated in the game if you use the Optional Rule that requires CP / TRS / AMPH at sea for supply to flow, because I seem to remember that if you are not using that rule, supply flows from the moment you have a unit at sea, so it is already evident if it flows or not.

I'll think about this. There are several possible conditions depending on optional rule the presence of supply carrying naval units, enemy naval combat units (including air), and friendly naval combat units counter-acting the presence of enemy naval combat unints. And this is ignoring whether a chain of sea areas traces back to a supply source and if any units are on the other end needing the supply.

I'll need to work out where to put the sea area's status on the detailed map. Perhaps I'll simply indicate which sea sections contain Convoys/AMPHs/Naval transports. That won't be that easy because of limited real estate around counter depictions.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is another new page. Screen shot by Patrice.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Two more new pages, screen shots by Patrice.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Second and last in series.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Two more new pages, screen shots by Patrice.

These look good. "amphibious" has a typo in it in the second last paragraph.

Cheers, Neilster