CHS 159 experimental

[ChezDaJez]

I'm posting a few observations as a Japanese player concerning CHS scenario 159. BradfordKay and I have just entered August 1942 and the war goes pretty well with one exception... the Japanese economy.

I'm starting to think that CHS may have reduced the number of resources a bit too much. Either that or CHS increased the rate at which it is used. The situation is so different than any I have experienced with the stock game.

Knowing that reources had been reduced in CHS at the very start, I halted various RD factories and several minor aircraft factories. I also stopped the Shinano and a couple of the very late war carriers to save HI. I waited until I could see what the effect was (slight increase in HI). In Mar-Apr 42 I increased aircraft and engine production by less than 10%. By then I had captured most of the major resource centers with most of them damaged over 50%. It was also about this time that the stockpiled resources in the home islands began to run out. The combined effect was to crash the economy hard. It took nearly 5 weeks to begin producing aircraft again and another month before my HI levels stayed above 1000. By mid-June I thought I was out of the woods with the HI now above 5000 and growing. Then in mid-July, the bottom fell out of the economy again and HI fell to zero. I again lost a significant portion of aircraft production. Since that time the HI level has fluctuated between 500-1500 without any changes to the economy except to turn off all aircraft production except fighters and delay more ships.

I doubt that I have increased aviation production by more than about 10% since the beginning of the game (I'm producing less than 2500 aircraft and engines a month combined). My biggest resource stockpile is ironically located at one of the most heavily damaged resource centers and it totals less than 60,000. I have had dozens of AKs heading for the remotest locations to fetch every resource they can and return it to manpower centers.

I've got tons of oil.. in fact I have so much oil I don't have enough tankers to move more than a small fraction of it. The home islands are basically awash in oil right now. Hiroshima has over 250,000 units of oil and it's only the 4th largest reerve in Japan.

I'm not complaining mind you because it does put the brakes on excessive Japanese production but it is ahistorical in that it should be the other way round. I should be struggling to ship oil and have a small surplus of resources during this time frame.

Any thoughts, comments?

Chez

[Andy Mac]

Yes where my turn !!! [:D][:D]

but seriously that seems a little odd resources should not be that tight

[ChezDaJez]

Yes where my turn !!!

I'm working on it! [:D]

Chez

[DD696]

In a long running game I had in CHS as allies against the AI I was into 1944 when it dawned on me that the Japanese had nothing left to throw against me....no planes, no shipping was moving, etc. Changed it over to head to head and saw that the Japanese economy had collapsed. Nothing was being produced, most airgroups had zero aircraft, no reserves, etc. I have never played the Japanese side and know little about how to guide it's economy, so I cannot tell why it died on me, but it did cause me to abandon that game and restart restart restart. If I recall correctly I do believe that I found significant stocks of oil in Japan and didn't really check on resourses. It was about oil, right?

As I am just starting up a new game (working on turn 1) perhaps I should go in and increase the resources, perhaps upping the output by some percentage. Playing against the AI I would rather that it have too many than too little.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I'm posting a few observations as a Japanese player concerning CHS scenario 159. BradfordKay and I have just entered August 1942 and the war goes pretty well with one exception... the Japanese economy.

I'm starting to think that CHS may have reduced the number of resources a bit too much. Either that or CHS increased the rate at which it is used. The situation is so different than any I have experienced with the stock game.

Thanks for the information. Very useful!

Andrew

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
I doubt that I have increased aviation production by more than about 10% since the beginning of the game (I'm producing less than 2500 aircraft and engines a month combined). My biggest resource stockpile is ironically located at one of the most heavily damaged resource centers and it totals less than 60,000. I have had dozens of AKs heading for the remotest locations to fetch every resource they can and return it to manpower centers.
Chez

Well, the actual historical Japanese production of all types of Aircraft in 1944 was 8861, or less than 740 per month. As the game doesn't represent "trainers" and such, 2500 Aircraft and engines per month sounds like you are "way ahead of the curve".

[Mike Scholl]

Damned stupid fingers..., that should be 1942 above.

[bradfordkay]

I find this interesting because it seems to me that I had damaged the oil facilities far more than the resource locations.

Now to put it in perspective, as the Allies in this game I have no major base with over 200,000 supply (except for maybe Pearl). SF is usually hovering around 110,000, Aden around 100,000. I have been forwarding supplies as fast as possible, but no base other than Pearl has much over 130,000 supply or so, and most major bases are between 60,000 and 100,000.

It seems to have made the game move in a more realistic manner, but I have no idea as to whether it is right.

[aztez]

I have noticed the same thing that ChezDaJez mentioned.
 
In my Japanese I'am about to enter 6/42 and the resources are very hard to come by. I too have plenty of Oil available but not much in terms of Resources!
 
I'am shipping resources out of China/Thailand/DEI/Borneo and Malaya.
 
(I haven't moved into Burma nor do I have control over Soerebaja, Balikpapan, Kendari and Batavia yet) Rest of the resource centers are mine though.
 
I have had to make similar sacrifices as above stated earlier. The main concern is aircraft production... also other issues but aircrafts are not coming along smoothly.
 
The main diffrence is that most of my resource centers have been almost intact.
 
This means I have to make couple of operations ongoing very soon. (I wohn't reveal those since Chuck will be reading these forums too)

[ChezDaJez]

Well, the actual historical Japanese production of all types of Aircraft in 1944 was 8861, or less than 740 per month. As the game doesn't represent "trainers" and such, 2500 Aircraft and engines per month sounds like you are "way ahead of the curve".

I've read a different figure but it's close to yours. Either way, the number reflected only what they produced, not what they were capable at this time. Japan had yet to transition to a war economy believing that the war would be relatively short.

In the game we know the war won't be short so Japan must increase some types of production, notably fighters and engines. I try not to go overboard on production but I do massage it to produce types I am more likely to use.

The good news is that the CHS air combat routines are far less bloody than stock so major production increases are not needed. In fact I'm very happy with the CHS air combat routines in scen 159. The bad news though is that you do have to tailor it and I found that even minor changes can have major impacts.

Oh, and Brad? This doesn't mean things will go easier for ya! KB don't need no steenkin' resources to fight!

Chez

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
I've read a different figure but it's close to yours. Either way, the number reflected only what they produced, not what they were capable at this time. Japan had yet to transition to a war economy believing that the war would be relatively short. So you have already been "Midway"-ed and know it's going to be "a war to the knife"?

In the game we know the war won't be short so Japan must increase some types of production, notably fighters and engines. I try not to go overboard on production but I do massage it to produce types I am more likely to use. And I assume that if your opponant has "massaged" Allied bomber production to nothing but B-17's that's OK with you?
Chez

I know you were just explaining how reasonable and modest were your production changes..., and I'm not "knocking you" Chez. Just showing how it looks from the "other side of the hill".

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: aztez

The main concern is aircraft production... also other issues but aircrafts are not coming along smoothly.

Your A6M2 pools must be pretty low the way my brave pilots are shooting down those dastardly Zeros. [;)]

This means I have to make couple of operations ongoing very soon. (I wohn't reveal those since Chuck will be reading these forums too)

Oh - go ahead & reveal them - I'm sure I won't see it! [:D]

[ctangus]

I've noticed the same thing as aztez & Chez in my Japanese game. I coincidentally just finished some number crunching on it. (Yea - I admit - I'm a dork. [:D]) My figures might be slightly off if my data entry was poor, but I'm sure these numbers are close.

In CHS Japan starts with 12790 HI. If they capture the historical perimeter intact HI is 13068. In stock those numbers are 12120 & 13530.

If Japan changes nothing in its industry and just lets the R&D factories repair, it will require 12824 HI. Very close to those above figures - so far so good.

However in CHS, based on a completely intact historical perimeter (who's that lucky? not me), one will at most get 16970 resources. Factoring in manpower needs that's enough to support 13673 HI. Factoring in 4% "shrinkage" (see this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1349415) those resources can at most support 12824 HI. Similar figures for stock are 15579 and 14634.

There's also a lot of tempting resource targets outside the historical perimeter in stock. There's relatively few in CHS. (Well, maybe the US West Coast... [:'(])

Oil is a completely different picture. An intact SRA in CHS will provide 17500 oil - theoretically that can support 17500 HI but more practically 16800. Stock figures are 16500 and 15840.

Finally - in CHS one starts with an 82 day reserve of resources and a 280 day reserve of oil. I thought oil reserves were about 6 months IRL.

Now I don't consider it game-breaking - viewed abstractly the Japanese should be operating on a shoestring and in most, if maybe not all, games struggling to keep their economy going. I perversely enjoy the challenge. But like Chez said, it should be the other way around and oil should be the limiting factor.

I worked out some alternate figures - I'll post them when I don't have a couple turns in the inbox...

[bradfordkay]

And here I was hammering the oil production facilities and not the resource production... silly me!

Actually, I have barely done any strategic bombing of this sort, but I did shove as many dutch troops as I could into Palembang and Balikpapan in order to deny these facilities to my opponent.

BTW, Chez, I do know that the KB needs intact hulls and decks in order to fight. [:'(]