AAR swift vs fochinell

[wernerpruckner]

industry situation

usually I would not give thius numbers away... but this game will probably stop as soon as the new version is public.

[wernerpruckner]

my reserve of A/C
I try to keep it historical

[wernerpruckner]

and now one of the nice moments in the last turn - Gavin probably will comment this [:D]
A 15h AF bomber group got seperated on its way back to Italy....and it got punished

[wernerpruckner]

NI situation in the night

[davidjruss]

Swift,

I notice that the "clouds button " is not on ( presumably to enable posting of screenshots to show as much information as possible ) Do you play with clouds on in normal play or is it disabled all of the time ? Do you find using the cloud feature is of any use when playing against an oponent ?

DavidR

[fochinell]

2nd December 1943. A: 116/2038 (25 aa) X: 85/1319 (1 gd). Notable losses this turn include 12 P-38L, 3 P-47C, 19 P-47D, 7 A-20C, 8 B-26B, 10 B-17F and 45 B-24J.

MTO:

Gavin probably will comment this [:D] A 15h AF bomber group got seperated on its way back to Italy....and it got punished

Worse that that, one out of the three Lib J groups (the 98th BG) attacking Hafen Freudenau PORT turned back before reach the target (just), probably down to it losing 4 planes plus 2 damaged in one atack by those pesky Me410's. Verdammt Zerstorer.... [:@] It looks like the losses were increased by the delay of the target-leg escorts due to weather, but there were enough P-38L squadrons plotted for the penetration-leg escorts to put up a fight; 12/240f 45/95b 73e. The target took 100% which was nice, but the 15th AF bombing force is currently too small to withstand this kind of attrition and maintain any sort of operational tempo. This wasn't unexpected on deep penetrations. Expect a few rest turns.

ETO: Fatigue reduces the scale of the 8th AF bomber effort, and a token two forces of two groups of B-17F each go to targets around Cologne and achieve little - no LW reaction and bombing scattered by weather onto ToO's; 0/360f 10/127b 4e. A 9th AF B-26 raid to Liege RR attracts some response but the 9th AF fighter groups are getting tired, 19/110f 8/64b 27e. Still, at least the weather was good enough to permit strategic raids for 2 days running. [&o]

BC: 5 Group sent 351 Lancasters to Bunawerke RUBBER for some cheap SB points. 147 report bombing the factory area, which is acceptable but disappointing for a large target being hit by well-rested night bomber units, for 2 losses. Wilde Sau active on the target and return, but neither they nor the intruders achieve much, with 1 Bf 110 being destroyed RTB'ing.

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: DavidR


Swift,

I notice that the "clouds button " is not on ( presumably to enable posting of screenshots to show as much information as possible ) Do you play with clouds on in normal play or is it disabled all of the time ? Do you find using the cloud feature is of any use when playing against an oponent ?

DavidR

David,
I do not always play with clouds on...I tend to turn them on sometimes when there are lot of small scale raids on the map.
Sites can be under a certain protection with cloud cover...also landing in clouds can be dangerous - but we have no way to let a unit land on another A/F.

Also in the night clouds are an interesting thing - more clouds over a target area - more sightings for my NFs ( as it is historically correct....)

[fochinell]

3rd December 1943. A: 39/690 (13 aa), X: 30/597 (6 gd). Main losses - 7 P47C, 19 P-47D, and the first 2 P-39's for two months as they return to action with 326, 327 and 329 French Sqns in Corsica. The re-equipment of the 9th AF RAF sqns to the Mustang is proceeding while the replacement of the Spit Vb units in MAC with their Spit IXs is interrupted by the auto-upgrade trying to upgrade my 2TAF Polish and Czech Spit Vb wings. Gnngh. [:@] I'm not picking on them, BTW, they just appear last.

MTO: Lots of fighter attacks on AF's and RR dodging the weather.

ETO: A couple of sweeps by 9th AF P-47D groups attract some combat and catch some Fw190's RTBing at Athies AF. Otherwise quiet, but the mighty P-47D is doing it's valued job of maintaining attrition in between the main attacks. It has the performance to fight on equal terms with the Axis fighters, the range to get out to AF's beyond the coastal zone and stay in the fight, the speed to get there before the low-fatigue slow reaction times favoured by certain players kick in [;)], the bombload needed to occasionally damage targets and best of all, it's available in sufficient quantity to actually sustain operations. Respect the Jug! [&o]

BC: Suprise, suprise and 6 Group stage yet another LGO raid on Dortmund Herne PORT (48/288b bomb), although the supporting mossies all get there and bomb (1/24b).

4th December 1943. A: 99/2128 (31 aa), X: 83/752 (2 gd). 30 P-38H, 12 P-47C, 13 P-47D and 24 B-26B.

MTO: More sweeps and strafes by the fighters. The 33rd FG doing a sweep of Vicenza (long flight up the Adriatic to get the LW units alert) takes heavy casualties (all 30/48 P-38H), but I'm a galactic Dark Lord and as such the success of the following P-38L attacks on airfields around Venice is more interesting as they catch a few interceptors.

ETO: Twin 8th AF B-17 raids to RUBBER plants around Hannover attract little attention and do little damage (0/374f 6/200b 16e) while the 56th FG manage to bounce some 109G6/R6's RTBing on the way back from the tactical fight and is now level with the 78th FG on 105 kills. The main action centres on the 9th AF supporting raid to Gladbach AF (13/92f 24/63b 46e) and the following 2TAF Mitchell raid to Evere AF (0/182f 0/72b 12e). While I lost more B-26's than I'd like, they and the P-47's in the tactical forces are there to soak up Werner's attention and it's good to see him using up 109's on them rather than the strategic raids where bomber losses actually mean something. [:'(]

BC: 1 Group hit Berlin for the first time in a month. Seems like a decent raid, 7/289 Lancaster Is. 205 Group (OK, not BC, but they are night bombers) hit Budapest with 1/172b lost. For once they manage a decent raid, with all bombloads reported within the city area.

[fochinell]

5th December 1943. A: 36/1372 (19 aa), X: 22/287 (1 gd).

MTO: 15th AF bombers hit Linz-PCD RUBBER for 99% damage and nil LW resistance - 1/207f 0/96b 0 e. Excellent. [:)] The main action takes place against the tactical raids, and for once these are almost all escorted bomber raids (normally I use the fighters to bomb airfields and RR). The main fights are small scale ones in the north against the Corsican forces of US A-20's and RAF B-25D's, 12th AF 3/138f 1/62b 8 e and MAC 3/71f 7/48b 12 e. (Another LGO on the 12th AF raid on Vicenza AF [:@])

ETO: Some P-47D strikes against AF's, nothing to get excited about.

BC: 3 Group hit Geisecke in the Ruhr for what looks like a concentrated raid - 2/270b and no NJG reaction.

6th December 1943. A: 195/3019 (30 aa), X: 133/1898 (6 gd). Big fight! Main losses are 25 Spit Vb, 13 Spit IX, 9 P-38H, 23 P-38L, 9 P-47C, 13 P-47D, 4 P-51B, 8 B-25D, 65 B-17F and 2 B-24J. This is the kind of turn I need to get on a regular basis, even if I'm not quite getting that magic 10% attrition per turn (Axis losses/sorties) I'm aiming for.

MTO: 15th AF bombers hit Electrochemische CHEM at Munich for substantial damage. Almost nil LW resistance, although a heroic 109 Gruppen tries an attack on the last leg of the return route over the southern Adriatic after the bingo fuel bug on the escorts makes it safe for them to approach the bombers. 0/237f 2/96b 2 e. This is the second time in two days the LW have wimped out of fighting the 15th. Excelleurrnt.... . Most of the fighting takes place against the tactical fighter strikes on the NW Italian AF's, which is fine by me.

ETO: The Mighty Eighth head to chemical sites around Frankfurt in three forces of 128 B-17's with maximum escort; Ludwigshafen-Oppau, Farbwerk Muehlheim and Veith RUBBER all take reasonable damage (over 50%) for 42/577f 65/384b 127e. All is quiet until the combined force gets just south of Bonn and heads east on the inbound leg, whereupon all hell breaks loose. Some hard fighting follows, with well-rested and full strength Zerstorer Gruppen breaking down some B-17 groups on the return leg. The supporting tactical raids against AF's attract some fighting as well, with most of the pain being suffered by the Spit Vb escorts to the 2TAF Mitchells, although their Spit IX top cover get some revenge - 25/328f 5/65b 16 e. The 9th AF Marauders wreck Dusseldorf AF for 3/145f 1/64b 18e. A 2TAF Mossie FB raid tries to sneak in amongst the confusion to hit Dortmund Roeder STEEL, but comes in too late and gets intercepted. The Spit IX escorts do well, but no damage to the target - 7/64f 5/24b 10e. The usual Tiffie raid to Belgium goes ahead without incident, and a Mossie flight does a low-level strike on Cherbourg VSITE.

BC: 4 Group hit Cologne-Rhine PORT for a concentrated raid with Mossie support - 1/216b and 0/24b. NJG are active for a change, but only one bomber lost for two Wilde Sau RTBing and one NI lost to flak in return.

[fochinell]

7th December 1943. A: 37/854 (12 aa), X: 29/443 (0 gd). A quieter turn due to weather and the need to rest the bomber units. Losses included 8 P-40, 4 P-47C, 15 P-47D but in return I've destroyed 380 Axis aircraft in the last week of game time, which is on course to my goal of over 1,200 per month.

MTO: Fighter strikes on AF's and RR as usual, most of the action centering on MAC P-40 and P-39 raids escorted by Spit IX's on Lucca and Pontedera AF's.

ETO: A P-47 Group attacks Gilze-Rijen AF.

BC: 5 Group to Magedburg for 4/352b and 0/23 Mossies to Emden RR, this time the NJG come up to fight in limited numbers and lose 8 Bf 110 G-4 and a couple of Fw 190 Wilde Sau, much to my satisfaction [:)].

[fochinell]

8th December 1943. A: 30/1017 (21 aa), X: 6/120 (0 gd). 17 P-47D, 10 A-20C.

MTO: The 12th AF tactical bombers hit some Italian industry sites and take their punishment from the Flak (as well as some opportunistic following-to-base by Stab JG 53). The MAC tactical strikes on Pontedera and Lucca AF's reveal the air bases on the coast opposite Corsica have been abandoned. Good news even if it cost me some fighters (I'm very slack about recon, but I usually keep the Italian AF's under surveillance even after I give up on the French/Belgian ones thanks to the excessive mandatory VSITE targeting for the tactical units).

ETO: A couple of P-47D strikes on Gilze-Rijen get hammered without getting anything in return as the AF is also empty; suprising given that these were well-rested 8th AF groups rather than my exhausted 9th AF FG's who normally get put through the ringer on these attritional AF strikes without mercy. At least OKL are having to move their fighters about to evade me, which is a good sign.

BC: 6 Group hit Stuttgart-Neckar PORT with LNSF support for what looks like a concentrated raid - 1/288b and 0/24b - although no NJG are claimed by the NI's this time. Cologne-Rhine PORT PR'd at 96% damage after the 4 Group raid two nights ago, so BC are pulling their weight on the SB front at the moment.

[fochinell]

9th December 1943. A: 51/2411 (10aa), X: 51/648. 22 P-38L, 4 P-47D, 3 P-47C, 9 B-17F, 4 B-24J.

MTO: 15th AF attack Pressburg RR near Vienna inflicting minimal damage, and get a fight for once - 13/238f 4/96b 55e. Various tactical raids by fighters mostly against Italian RR, including one to Zagreb RR by the 12th AF P-38H's.

ETO: The 8th AF go to targets in western France, mostly to avoid bad weather over Germany. The main force attacks Dunlop RUBBER for 100% (13/336f 6/96b 8e), while a later combined raid by two small forces ineffectively attacks industrial sites around Nantes (0/144f 3/128b 0e). The 9th AF and 2TAF mediums do little damage to their tagets on the Seine estuary and see no combat.

BC: 1 Group attack Hohenbudberg RR in a concentrated raid (0/288b)with LNSF Mossie support (0/24b). No NJG resistance and no NI claims.

[fochinell]

10th December 1943 Mislaid my notes for that turn, although I remember 3 Group hit Wedau.

11th December 1943. A: 14/1213 (8 aa), X: 1/72 (0 gd). 6 B-24J.

MTO: 15th AF bombers to Steyr RR, practically no resistance for 99% damage - 0/240f 6/96b 0e. Various fighter tactical raids around Italy, nothing too remarkable. PR reveals OKL has withdrawn entirely from Italian AF's, which is a substantial victory for the Allies. [:D] However, this does mean I can expect higher losses for my strategic forces given that the LW is moving out of range of the tactical forces. No matter, I am a Galactic Dark Lord and I care not for the fate of my minions.

ETO: Nothing exciting by day due to low cloud, but 4 Group hit Kassel-Weser PORT in an excellent raid, all units bombing the target area - 1/216b. No NJG activity and no NI claims.

[wernerpruckner]

Stay tuned!
for the next turn - called "bloody hell"!!!
next turn you will see losses of more than 500 aircraft !!
200+ heavy bombers killed, but also huge German losses.[X(][X(][X(]
 
more information by Gavin aka fochinell

[fochinell]

12th December 1943. A: 306/2524 (24aa), X: 260/2688 (0 gd). A major bloodbath [:)], but while the Axis losses are high, Werner's concentration on my bombers leads to very heavy B-17 losses. [:@] It will take a few turns to build up the 1st Bomb Division of the 8th AF after today's slaughter. 15 Spit Vb, 2 Spit IX, 14 P-38L, 2 P-38H, 2 P-47C, 22 P-47D, 9 P-51B, 228 B-17G. I've hit the 10% attrition I wanted, and inflicted more than 250 losses on the LW, but the price was steeper than I wanted - Werner inflicted 12% attition on me, and more importantly cost me almost 1 B-17 per a/c destroyed.

MTO: Lots of tactical fighter strikes in Italy, a few cancelled by weather. The only combat is between a 12th AF P-38H group and one of the Stab units OKL have left behind in southern Italy. Just for variety, today's LGO raid was a P-40 strike on southern Italian RR.

ETO: Armageddon. Three joint forces of B-17G's head into the Reich for a deep penetration attack under maximum escort - two forces of 132 B-17's each to Bernberg and Ammoniawerke CHEM, with a smaller force of 68 to cut back at a point on the inbound route to hit Continental RUBBER at Hannover. All is quiet until the force gets past Kassel, when OKL throw everything and the kitchen sink in. The Zerstorers do most of the damage again, but lose eighty in return. The NJG join in for a cripple hunt at the end, losing almost all of their 28 NJG and 10 WS lost this turn in the day battle. The 56th FG overtake the 78th this turn by means of some good RTB kills on the way in to cover the exit route (123 kills vs 112). Result - 41/615f 228/332b 335e for minimal bombing results, with only Continental taking any kind of visible damage. The 9th AF Marauder raid in support comes in too early and too shallow, but does some useful damage to Fridrich-Alfred STEEL in the SW Ruhr as well as claiming some RTB's - 5/158f 0/64b 39e. The 2TAF Mitchells going to industry near Brussels absorb a lot of slant-range flak, and lose some fighters despite 132 Sqn doing superbly with their Spit Vbs - 10/146f 4/72b 16e. A Typhoon and a mossie FB raid into western France do little, while a Spit Vb strike on Tille AF loses some Spit Vb's for no result.

BC: 5 Group to Stettin. A good but not outstanding raid, with about 85% of the bombers on target. 3/352b to flak, NI's make 4 claims. Wedau and Hohenbudberg RR PR'd at 99% damage which makes me feel a bit better. [8D]

PS - one of the losses was F/Off W. Balard of 351st BG, who became the only B-17 ace shortly before his death.... [:(]

[fochinell]

13th December 1942. A: 32/1321 (17a), X: 15/395 (6 gd).

MTO: Tactical strikes by fighters on RR sites in Italy, with an A-20 raid on a Genoese CHEM FAC. No opposition.

ETO: Fighter sweeps to active AF's by the 8th and 9th AF's, some useful combat despite half the sweeps being cancelled due to weather. Too small-scale for any pretence at allied success, however. Still, it keeps the fatigue levels up.

BC: 6 Group to Dortmund - 5/330b plus 0/24b mossies. Some NJG activity. Most bombloads within the large urban area, but not a concentrated raid. Stettin PR'd at 46% RR damage.

[fochinell]

14th December 1943. A: 39/2690 (26 aa), X: 1/139 (0 gd).

MTO: Various ineffectual fighter strikes on Italian RR. A skirmish over the Adriatic with returning 15th AF P-38L's is the only excitement.

ETO: The 8th AF stage major attacks on some of the same targets from two days ago wth three forces of 160 B-17F with full escort, but provoke zero LW reaction except for some stragglers being picked off. The bombing goes well, with Bernberg CHEM 63%, Continental RUBBER 88%, and then for ironic impact the third force miss their primary and secondary and hit Weserhutte ARM for 99%. Shame the 9th AF supporting raid hits the same target... Overall 0/531f 14/480b 0e for the 8th and 0/154f 2/64b 0e for the 9th. The 2TAF Mitchells hit Hamm-Dynamit ARM for 63% for a suprisingly good bombing result as well - 3/390f 1/72b 0e.

BC: 1 Group attack Halle for what looks like a decent raid - 0/291b, and 205 Group hit Graz for a concentrated raid. NJG are active in small numbers against the Halle raid, and lose 1 to NI's while 1 Mossie NFII goes down to Flak. Dortmund RR PR'd at 76% damage, so the BC campaign against the major RR's is slowly paying off.

[Joel Rauber]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)

Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: Joel Rauber

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)

Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?

yes indeed [:)]

[fochinell]

Would it be fair to interpret from the above, that if one plotted more "historical" style raids that the loss rates would look more historical?

No, IMO playing out 'historical' raids in BTR will give you double the historical casualties, easily. Interceptions tended to be less conclusive in RL, and especially when it involved relatively high-flying, fast and well-defended B-17 formations.