Mid August update!

[hlj]

Yup! You are right! It is totally unprofessional and pathetic of Matrix Games and the programmer when they implement changes based on their “clients” wishes. [:@] How dare they listen to us? Shame on them!!! [:-] And why give a damn if the product works as good as they want it to!! Gimme it now [:@]

I would much rather prefer if Matrix Games just made a product without asking their “clients” what they wanted.

When you visit a restaurant you would get your food faster if the waiter just brought you something without asking you what you would like. But I would like to place my order myself.   [;)]

N.B. DANGER sarcasm above.

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

HEAR! HEAR!
 
I agree with your sarcastic remarks hlj
 
It is truly sad to see this situation unfold.
 
A developer does a brave thing... he opens the development process to the input of the end users so that the product will be what they want.
 
And a very vocal goup of short sighted folks insist on whining because it is not done yet.
 
If Marshall (and Matrix Games) had decided to bypass the input of the end users, 2 things would have happened....
 
1.  We would have only recently found out that this game was under development and about to be released.
2.  We would have had ZERO opportunity to influence the design decisions and have to take or leave the product AS IS.
 
I believe that opening the development process to the end users will result in a superior product.  Unfortunately, it has also undoubtedly caused additional (and unnecessary) stress for the developer and producers.
 
Any of you who may have been involved in software development will understand this intuitively.  Allow me to explain for those who have not 'walked a mile in those shoes.'
 
Undertaking a large development project (such as EIA) is an act of faith that has to be experienced to be believed.  Especially when it is done by a single individual or a very small group.  One never knows what stumbling blocks and pitfalls will show up during the process.  One never knows how difficult certain tasks will be.  No amount of planning (per se) will be enough.  This is because, until it is done, it isn't DONE.  Until the last line of code is written, debugged, wrung out, optimized, re-debugged, slept on, and survives after all the other routines that use or affect it are debugged (and so on); IT IS NOT DONE.
 
Undertaking a project like this demands that a programmer BELIEVE that it can and will be done.  There are times during every large project where the programmers begin to wonder if it will ever come together.  Having to listen to the whining of bystanders who couldnt' code their way out of a wet paper bag and who have probably never written anything more complex than a bubble sort is just one more reason not to bother.
 
This game had to be developed by an individual (or very small group) because, I suspect, the sales projections would not support a big team.
 
We have a saying in the industry:  There are three factors wanted in a project - Done Quickly, Done Well, and Done Inexpensively - You can have any two but not all three.
 
Done Inexpensively is a must due to the rather narrow consumer base of a game like this and the unlikelihood that we would pay $99.00 or $199.00 for a copy rather than what seems to be the going rate for games.
 
Done Well is a must because otherwise the project will be a failure.  Marshall's pride and reputation along with Matrix Games' must be satisfied with a solid piece of software that is the best that can be done.
 
Done Quickly, then, must fall by the wayside.
 
 
It pains me to think that the whining of the short-sighted people with no patience might prevent such behavior in the future.
 
With all the whining going on, why would anyone bother?
 
I hope that the folks at Matrix (along with the developers who are working on their games) continue this practice in spite of the whining.  It has to make for better games.
 
I salute Marshal and Matrix for being that open and am truly sorry that you had to listen to all the complaints.  I hope you will continue the practice in the future.
 
FINALLY
 
For those of you who are pissed of at me for stepping on your toes, consider this..
 
Visit bluesnews.com or gamespy.com or ign.com or some other site and only look at the 'gone gold' announcements.  Maybe you can handle a wait of two weeks.  I'm betting you can't even do that.
 
 
 
These opinions are mine and do not reflect the position of anyone related to any company anywhere unless they jump in here and agree with me.
 

[StCyr]

well Samu, why change the publisher to have a look at other games ? Just look at World in Flames forum and you will see how to handle not only problems but the whole development professional.

It´s ok if you feel with another programmer- but for how many years may your arguments justify the delay of EIA ? 2 ? 4 ? 10 ?
Don´t you think it might help to be honest and call a mistake a mistake, a failure a failure and not to give a general excuse for everything ?


hlj, why do you insist that the delay is caused by changes Marshal made in reaction to the comments at the forum ? This game is late for years now, and even Marshal himself never used the fact that he left out several rules and reincluded some of them later again as an excuse so far.

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

I follow the World In Flames forum and am completely astounded at the amount of time the developer spends communicating with the denizens of that forum.  However, even with his multi-page monthly status reports, he gets about as many 'why isn't it finished' and 'I've been waiting too long' complaints as this game does. 
 
As for justification for delay, I can't think how to say this where it won't sound smart-a$$ed.  So, please don't take it as off the cuff as it sounds.
 
I am a dyed in the wool free market capitalist.  I believe that the only people whose opinion should count are those who are investing (money, time, use of equipment / office space) toward the completion of the project.  All other opinions, including mine, are irrelevant. 
 
Anyone who wants to complain enough should pony up some cash and ask to become an investor / producer.  Until your assets are on the line, your opinion is not nearly as important as those whose assets and resources are being consumed by the production of the software.
 
Things would be completely different if people had already paid for their copy of the game.  Things would be completely different if people were stockholders in Matrix Games (though one could certainly argue that a users forum is poor choice for airing stockholder concerns).
 
As it is, I occasionally feel compelled to occasionally balance the vocal complaints with another view.  When I do so, I get carried away.
 
 
As for it being a failure, I think it is safe to say that there was a failure to meet original scheduling goals.  But, how firm were those goals?  How important were they to the Developer/Producers? 
 
Will the entire project be a failure?  If they got pissed off at the negative comments and gave up, it would certainly be a failure.
 
If it comes out and sucks, it will be a failure.
 
Until then, it is only late.
 
 
 
 
 

[Monadman]

Guys,

I guess needs repeating:

The game and test team of 2002 is not the game and team that is in place today (save a few and very little). Early on, as the game struggled to become an “EIA-like” game under the name “The Napoleonic Wars”, the EIA game connoisseurs (the game purists) were pushed aside. At some point, Matrix gained the rights to EiA and the game began its journey back to the fold. Since then, it has been a long, and at times unorganized, morphing experience to get EIANW as close as possible (within programming constraints) to the original EIA game (sorry fellow purists but it will never be pure EiA).

Currently, EiANW is a combination of EiA, parts of EiH (OOB, map and some rules), and a boatload of deviations. It is still progressing but during this journey, we (the testers) can only move as fast as the programmer’s pace and the programmer is a very busy person. Anyone familiar with satellite technology knows that data is downloaded in bursts (not dynamically streaming). That pretty much sums up how this project has been progressing (in bursts), what with a part-time programmer and a skeleton test crew to boot.

Richard

[StCyr]

At some point, Matrix gained the rights to EiA and the game began its journey back to the fold.

Well, I guess 2002 was still the starting point

("Staten Island, NY, September 23rd, 2002 - Matrix Games and Australian Design Group (ADG: www.a-d-g.com.au ) are pleased to announce that the classic game of Napoleonic Grand Strategy, Empires In Arms, will be adapted for computer play with some new enhancements and features. Development is already well underway, with an expected release date of mid-2003.")

Richard, I just hope hlj does not call you inhuman for describing Marshall as "part-time programmer" [;)]

[Monadman]

ORIGINAL: StCyr

At some point, Matrix gained the rights to EiA and the game began its journey back to the fold.

Well, I guess 2002 was still the starting point

("Staten Island, NY, September 23rd, 2002 - Matrix Games and Australian Design Group (ADG: www.a-d-g.com.au ) are pleased to announce that the classic game of Napoleonic Grand Strategy, Empires In Arms, will be adapted for computer play with some new enhancements and features. Development is already well underway, with an expected release date of mid-2003.")

Richard, I just hope hlj does not call you inhuman for describing Marshall as "part-time programmer" [;)]

I wasn’t around in 2002 but I think “new enhancements and features” would have caught my attention as it does now. From my perspective 2007, I’m more incline to call it “deviations and workarounds”. Anyway, Marshall already knows I’m inhuman and now hlj and everyone else knows it too.

Richard

[gazfun]

Ive probably started to get inhuman to, after helping out with this for a time.
Ah well you get that, but at least we are getting somewhere, hey [8D]

[von_Bülow]

hlj and Samuraiprogrammer:

please read my post above closely, you obviously did not get my point.

I do not criticize the fact that matrix games opens the programm process for the public nor do I criticize the fact that the game is still not available. And I am definitely not part of a "very vocal group of short sighted folks", but thanks for that.
I only criticize that at regular intervals "the date of release is very close now". That's unprofessionel, I just call a spade a spade!

And if you emphasize that matrix opens the development process for public than you will accept my objection as valid criticism.

Please change your communication policy in future, that's all I am saying.


Thanks!

[speedo]

I think von_Bülow just perfectly got my point...

@ samuraiprogrammer
as i always say, people who can read definitly have an advantage

I am not criticising the process of involving customers, just the communication policy...
JUST SAY ITS DONE OR WILL BE DONE SHORTLY, WHEN YOU HAVE IT READY TO SHIP AT YOUR DESK, thats all I was saying

******
END JULY

"Just an FYI since we DO have some different news to report!
We are beginning to put the dress pants on the game!

The manual is almost complete!
I am awaiting final music.
I am awaiting one last BMP file from the graphics team.

When these things happen then we can produce a Golden Image within a week (+/- week).
This doesn't mean that it will be released in a week or two since there is a lot that Matrix
has to do to get this thing dressed up for release (Boxes, manual, CDs, etc) but MAYBE I won't
be the delay any longer."


MID AUGUST
"Apologize for the slight delay. We're trying to keep ..."

MONADMAN END AUGUST

"The long march continues . . . "

******

and by the way... watching the process for 5 years is everything but short sighted and impatient.
just mention that before you write about 50 lines of b.s.

"Any of you who may have been involved in software development will understand this intuitively. Allow me to explain for those who have not 'walked a mile in those shoes.'"

Bringing out a product that is 100% free of bugs and perfectly customized to the users is impossible and an economic desaster.
I think the lifetime of a human (in this case Marshalls) is too short for that.
(just an experience of 10 years of work in the software industry as akey acc. manager)

My strategy would be:
Bring out the Product with the common features of the game and some goodies
Then improve it and add features with Updates.
With lots of people playing the game you get a more sophisticated input for new features (in my opinion)

[hlj]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I'm just not accurate enough to give you good estimates therefore, I will not give them anymore! I'll keep working and when the testers can agree that we're ready then we're ready! Don't worry, I'm not saying that I'm quitting but I am quitting giving you guys bad info. I'll stay on touch on the forums!

Marshall knows that his estimates are not great. But as soon as he said that he wouldnt make a monthly report where people could bug him for a release date people responded:

I think that many prefer that the things continue like they are, with a monthly update (although it is only to say "we are alive") better than to abandon the reports.

ORIGINAL: StCyr
LOL !!!

yea, just as you we don´t want to know about reality, so please don´t bother us any longer with any facts. The only result would be that you might get some input about what is going wrong with your concept.

He is just trying to please the crowd. I am not saying that he is going about it the right way. I am just saying that I think it unfair to blame him for a fictional delay. The game is not delayed Marshall is just realy bad at estemating. There have been no release date that haven't been met, only hopes that havent turned out to reflect reality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINAL: StCyr
hlj, why do you insist that the delay is caused by changes Marshal made in reaction to the comments at the forum ? This game is late for years now, and even Marshal himself never used the fact that he left out several rules and reincluded some of them later again as an excuse so far.

How nice of you to notice ^_^ He have never blamed you or any of the other forum users for any delays they might have caused to the plan Marshall innitially had. Why should we then blame him for sharing his plan and his hopes for a release? It sounded like you thought in earlier messages that there were a point in telling Marshall about what you thought were wrong with his plan for the game. Why the change of heart? havent he changed many issues pointed out by forum readers?

Why is it so important for you to place blame for a delay?
Do you think the game won't be worth the wait?
If so, why are you still here? If not, why do you post the messages you do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINAL: von_Bülow

Lets face it: the way matrix games/the programmer is communicating with their "clients" is pathetic and very unprofessionell. No need to bash me, just my opinion...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only criticize that at regular intervals "the date of release is very close now". That's unprofessionel, I just call a spade a spade!

I agree that false predictions are anoying and best left out. But I dont like that words as pathetic and unprofessionel are followed with a note that you shouldnt be bashed for you opinion. Speedo made a nice and on the point criticism of the several unaccurate predictions on the subject of the release of the game. You not only criticized the bad release info you also trashed all communications between Marshall and us.

Any comment on an open forum is liable to be "bashed" especialy when the writer chooses to use colorfull adjectives to describe how he feels about a subject.

P.S. I know I invite to quite a "bashing" myself but I dont mind when people disagree with me. I just mind if they disagree with me and post their views for the world to see and dont want me to post that and why I disagree or agree with them.

[StCyr]

The game is not delayed Marshall is just realy bad at estemating.

Hell, your absolute right! And all the medieval monks were right too when they said Jesus would return in the year 1000... ok, they were also not that good in estemating, but now I know that there was no delay, you saved my day [:D].

Do you really think that Marshall and David Heath think EiA to be in time ?

[hlj]

I dont care what they think. What is important to me is what I think. And I think I will get the game shortly after I have paid for it. Any percived delay by Marshall, David, you or any of the other forum readers wont cost me anything ^_^
 

[PunkReaper]

ORIGINAL: hlj

I dont care what they think. What is important to me is what I think. And I think I will get the game shortly after I have paid for it. Any percived delay by Marshall, David, you or any of the other forum readers wont cost me anything ^_^

Well said....there are other games out there for the moment and lives to live instead of bitching about EiA. I will buy it when it is done and while I'm waiting I will do something else and just wait until its finished. Just keep on plodding on Marshall don't let it drop, there are plenty of people out there quietly and politely waiting for the finished product.

[yammahoper]

I also cannot feel much over losing something I never had, a contradiction in terms at best.  Longer development could well mean it will never be finished and released, depending in matrix investment model and resources. 
 
Perhaps if this process cost me something, I would have an emotional investment.  However, clicking a bookmark and follwing a few shortcuts doesn't seem like much to me to stay updated. 
 
yamma