MWiF Map Review - America

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ajds

The little bump is Palos Verdes, and Long Beach is of course to the east of it, so putting Long Beach in the hex to the east of the bump makes sense to me. I doubt anyone could call Long Beach moutainous, but things do get hilly in Orange County and down towards San Diego, so the hex as mountainous is reasonable. Adding the Long Beach city makes sense from a variety of directions, not least because the greater Los Angeles area had more than one population center. Thumbs up from me - as usual, excellent work.

Port Hueneme (or whatever the spelling is) could be a minor port in one of the mountain coastal hexes to the west of Los Angeles, but the coast north of Palos Verdes is all beach or rocks through Malibu and beyond, so no port along there (I am referring to the coast in the Los Angeles clear hex).

Thanks, I was in doubt with the port facilities of Los Angeles proper. I removed the minor port.
I'm in doubt with the factory being placed in Long Beach. Is this realistic ?
Also, what about this strait hexside ? Shouldn't it be between Long Beach and the islands, rather than between LA and the islands ?

[Froonp]

About the resource that is northeast of Los Angeles.
Originaly, the resource in California was in the mountains south of San Jose / San Francisco. This is where it is on the WiF FE maps.

ajds in his post #267 in January prudently said that :

I say this because the Kaiser steel mills were historically in the San Bernardino area east of Los Angeles, served by the Eagle Mountain iron mine even further east. I am not suggesting there isn't significant resources in the coastal mountains where the current resource marker is, I just am not aware of them, but the Kaiser mills and related mine were substantial in the WWII timeframe. In addition there was and is quite a bit of strategic mineral mining in the desert hexes to the northeast of Los Angeles (notably potash and cement), supporting the resource on that side of Los Angeles

But I would like a doubt to be removed from my mind. I looked for the Kaiser mills and Eagle Mountain in Wikipedia, and found out that Eagle Mountain was founded after the war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Moun ... California).

I may be wrong, and may have found the wrong source, but can you Californians (or other people familiar with California) confirm that mining in Califonia was mainly east of LA, and not south of San Francisco ?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Thanks, I was in doubt with the port facilities of Los Angeles proper. I removed the minor port.
I'm in doubt with the factory being placed in Long Beach. Is this realistic ?
Also, what about this strait hexside ? Shouldn't it be between Long Beach and the islands, rather than between LA and the islands ?

Look here for information about Long Beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach,_California

This link confirms that Long Beach is one of the world's largest shipping ports. It also confirms Long Beach had a big oil industry and even some other industry like aircraft, automobile parts, electronics etc. So I definitely think we can keep the factory in Long Beach.

Look at this link for a photo of Long Beach factory workers producing aircraft parts? in 1945:
http://www.webshots.com/g/45/65-sh/5497.html

Link with info about an aircraft factory in Long Beach that opened in 1941. It was originally a Douglas plant, but is now a Boeing plant. This factory produced among other aircraft the famous B-17 bomber.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/facili ... hsite.html

[ajds]

I was basing my suggestion on 1942, thinking production at the Fontana (Kaiser) steel mills started then (in response to the Japanese DoW). But that may have been the date of start of construction, with steel production as late as 1948. It isn't clear from quick Internet review. A lot of iron ore came out of the Eagle Mountain mine and went to Fontana, but perhaps not in the right timeframe - I certainly don't know how the resource markers were assigned in WiF.

[iamspamus]

Yeah, I'd agree. I thought that Port Elizabeth was larger even than East London. Isn't that right?

Jason

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The latest also supports at least a minor port in Port Elizabeth (118k in 1940).

[iamspamus]

Commenting late, but this is good. Good change with Jo'burg and PE.

Jason

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is what South Africa looks like with Johannesburg (554k inhabitants) and Port Elizabeth (118k).

Looks great to me. [:)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: iamspamus

Yeah, I'd agree. I thought that Port Elizabeth was larger even than East London. Isn't that right?

Jason

Cities & Ports of South Africa, in 1940 & 1944 (Source : Collier 1940 & 1944 atlases) :

- Bloemfontein : 51k.
- Cape Town : 352k.
- Durban : 270k.
- East London : 47k.
- Johannesburg : 554k.
- Port Elizabeth : 118k.
- Pretoria : 138k.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
Yeah, I'd agree. I thought that Port Elizabeth was larger even than East London. Isn't that right?

Jason

Cities & Ports of South Africa, in 1940 & 1944 (Source : Collier 1940 & 1944 atlases) :

- Bloemfontein : 51k.
- Cape Town : 352k.
- Durban : 270k.
- East London : 47k.
- Johannesburg : 554k.
- Port Elizabeth : 118k.
- Pretoria : 138k.

But including ports is not driven exclusively by population. Whether to include cities is strongly influenced by population, but not ports.

This is because in WIF ports represent two aspects of the war:
1 - military (construction, outfitting, repair, refurbishment, and stationing of fighting ships)
2 - merchant marine (the transportation of resources, food, people, and war materiel).

For instance, in Philadelphia there are two quite separate and distinct locations for these two activities. The non-military ports often have large populations, but that is not necessarily so for some of the important military ports/bases.

[Froonp]

The graphic artist finaly re-drew the Willamette / Columbia rivers near Portland, here is what it looks like now.
Comments ?

[Froonp]

We also re-did the mouth of the Cauca River area in Colombia.
Comments ?

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

We also re-did the mouth of the Cauca River area in Colombia.
Comments ?

You should not be able to sail CV's into Maracaibo Lake. The seadot cannot be easily rationalized. There is no major port even.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
You should not be able to sail CV's into Maracaibo Lake. The seadot cannot be easily rationalized. There is no major port even.

Well, I agree this is arguable, but WiF FE is made that way initialy.

[Froonp]

Here's how it looks from space, from 200 km altitude.

[Froonp]

As a comparison, here is how Gibraltar looks from the same altitude.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
You should not be able to sail CV's into Maracaibo Lake. The seadot cannot be easily rationalized. There is no major port even.

The pictures from space that I posted show that you are right, but changing it would require :
- Making Maracaibo Lake a Lake in WiF FE terms, that is that the link between it and the sea would be what ? River ? Canal like the Zuider Zee ? Nothing fits here neither. Neither River nor Canal, that is the Lake touches the sea ? This would be the only place where this would show.
- Having Steve code a rule similar to the Gibraltar Rule, that would say that you can access the shores of Maracaibo Lake (104,316, 104,317, 105,315, 105,317, 106,316, 106,317) only if Maracaibo is not in enemy hands.

Moreover, as the bit of the WiF FE map I posted is showing, the 2 OIL resources can be shipped to sea directly from their hexes without going through Maracaibo, so having Maracaibo Lake as a Lake in WiF FE terms would change that.

All this said, frankly this is a tiny issue, how often will MWiF's CVs enter MWiF's Maracaibo Lake I wonder, but I think that they never will.

We'd better let it be how it is.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
You should not be able to sail CV's into Maracaibo Lake. The seadot cannot be easily rationalized. There is no major port even.

The pictures from space that I posted show that you are right, but changing it would require :
- Making Maracaibo Lake a Lake in WiF FE terms, that is that the link between it and the sea would be what ? River ? Canal like the Zuider Zee ? Nothing fits here neither. Neither River nor Canal, that is the Lake touches the sea ? This would be the only place where this would show.
- Having Steve code a rule similar to the Gibraltar Rule, that would say that you can access the shores of Maracaibo Lake (104,316, 104,317, 105,315, 105,317, 106,316, 106,317) only if Maracaibo is not in enemy hands.

Moreover, as the bit of the WiF FE map I posted is showing, the 2 OIL resources can be shipped to sea directly from their hexes without going through Maracaibo, so having Maracaibo Lake as a Lake in WiF FE terms would change that.

All this said, frankly this is a tiny issue, how often will MWiF's CVs enter MWiF's Maracaibo Lake I wonder, but I think that they never will.

We'd better let it be how it is.

Another issue would be picking up the eastern oil resources.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Here is some info about Lake Maracaibo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo

It has brackish water and acts like a major shipping route according to Wikipedia. It also seems oil supertankers enter the ports there and load oil. One of these supertankers crashed with the bridge linking the city of Maracaibo with the rest of Venezuela. This happened in 1964.

So I definitely think it's no problem keeping the all sea hex inside Lake Maracaibo. The lake doesn't have fresh water and even supports supertankers. So I guess warships could have sailed into the lake if they wanted to.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

Here is some info about Lake Maracaibo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo

It has brackish water and acts like a major shipping route according to Wikipedia. It also seems oil supertankers enter the ports there and load oil. One of these supertankers crashed with the bridge linking the city of Maracaibo with the rest of Venezuela. This happened in 1964.

So I definitely think it's no problem keeping the all sea hex inside Lake Maracaibo. The lake doesn't have fresh water and even supports supertankers. So I guess warships could have sailed into the lake if they wanted to.

So be it.

[marcuswatney]

SOUTH AMERICA
 
Brazil:  The Amazon River Road is an anachronism.  When I was on the Amazon in 1975, Manaus could still only be reached by river.  It is a free port (truly), so the Amazon should be shown as navigable up to that point.  In 1975 the only road out of the Amazon southwards began at Santarem, roughly where Amazon of Amazon River Road is printed ... and it looked pretty new.  Northwards, the road network began at Boa Vista near the source of the Branco and ran to the border with Venezuela and onwards.
 
Paraguay:  The border with Bolivia is pre-1938.  The Chaco War (1932-35), an appallingly bloody war fought under the mistaken belief there was oil there, resulted in a Paraguayan victory.  The border was adjusted so that it heads west from the Paraguay River, then turns sharply south-southwest.  The Gran Chaco is a general term covering a vast stretch of land from Argentina into Paraguay.  It is probably best to remove this name, as the word Chaco is associated with Paraguay.  Perhaps put 'The Chaco' in NW Paraguay in commemoration of the massive loss of life all for nothing?
 
Bolivia:  The resource must surely be the Potosi silver mines.  If so, then they are just southwest of Sucre.
 
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Paraguay:  The border with Bolivia is pre-1938.  The Chaco War (1932-35), an appallingly bloody war fought under the mistaken belief there was oil there, resulted in a Paraguayan victory.  The border was adjusted so that it heads west from the Paraguay River, then turns sharply south-southwest.  The Gran Chaco is a general term covering a vast stretch of land from Argentina into Paraguay.  It is probably best to remove this name, as the word Chaco is associated with Paraguay.  Perhaps put 'The Chaco' in NW Paraguay in commemoration of the massive loss of life all for nothing?

You mean, it should be more like that ? :